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Zadzi

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:44 pm

No I did not backtrack. Give me an example. Within context. What part of 'semantical difference' is not understood. I merely expanded on my own observation and my own opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:51 pm

Yes, davrille, that's what I typically do. And nobody ever really pays me any attention because they know my words are utterly inconsequential. =D

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:00 pm

Guys- why are you making this personal? Cut that out! Seriously, kids.

(Geez- we're all supposed to be friends here, right? Right Dayrille? Right Zadzi? Now kiss and make up! I insist!  Here's an owl for motivation:  Owl )

Okay-- back to our regularly scheduled program...

@Davrille wrote:

The whole "those who make the journey etc." comment from Timmain, in my opinion, echoed and clarified in the sending conversation between Sunstream and Korafay. When an elf decides they're done with the WoTM, they'll make the journey

Okay-- I know this is supposed to be the message we take away from the story. I know that this is what Wendy was trying to convey and such. But here's my problem with that. Cutter and company made that journey. So did the Go Backs. They mega made it! But none f them were ready. Because they didn't understand what they were journeying toward. The SunFolk did NOT make that journey--- they got a ride. But they were ready, as it turned out. How is any elf going to know they are ready for the Palace until they see what the Palace is? And why are we suddenly evaluating that readiness by the capacity to travel great distances overland?

I call logical fallacy!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:03 pm

@Shadowpath wrote:
Yes, davrille, that's what I typically do. And nobody ever really pays me any attention because they know my words are utterly inconsequential. =D

I'm sorry-- did you say something? Just kidding!

You too, Shadow! Cut it out! (Here's a bunny: albino )

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:06 pm

To touch upon a point Red brought up... I think the key has to be symbolic, right? The only thing it opens is Two Edge's armory. Why would they go back to that? They've already used the armor and emptied the place.. unless he filled it up again? How was that armory associated with an ancient wrong?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:07 pm

There's also the question of why they would follow a demonstrably loopy Cutter... but I digress.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:38 am

Maybe it's only the Heart Circle following him, and maybe they're following him exactly because he's loopy; to keep him safe.
And also because they love him, of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:40 am

@Twillor wrote:
Their pose almost says, "I found the remote!"

Exactly! Smile That's very close to my first thoughts.
But yes, probably also a symbolism.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:06 am

@kathleen3.0 wrote:
I think the thing is that if you can't take criticism, don't go into the arts.
I respectfully disagree with that. Artists deserve respect. Criticism should be constructive. Of course it is often not that way, but having a sensitive soul should not discourage anyone from persuing a creative career.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:58 am

i think this is a bit of a fine line...on the one hand, i can agree with Elwing, people shouldn't be discouraged from something if it's their passion. but at the same time, a bit of a tough skin is an advantage for an artist, because some people will criticize just to troll. or people are stupid and won't see things your way...but also yet again, if someone follows their passion and it makes them miserable, and someone KNEW they would be, shouldn't they be gently discouraged so that doesn't happen? isn't that what you do for the people you care for, trying to prevent them from making a mistake that will hurt them?

but i will say i lose respect for ANY artist who throws a tantrum at any criticism, constructive or otherwise. i've seen it a few times in the past year or two, and it irritates me and just makes me shake my head.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:14 pm

@Lunakat wrote:
Guys- why are you making this personal? Cut that out! Seriously, kids.

(Geez- we're all supposed to be friends here, right? Right Dayrille? Right Zadzi? Now kiss and make up! I insist!  Here's an owl for motivation:  Owl )


I woke up too early and was feeling extra pissy and adamant, so I'm sorry if I came off sounding all extreme. I still stand by what I said, maybe just could've said it more gracefully or something.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:17 pm

@Vaeri wrote:

but i will say i lose respect for ANY artist who throws a tantrum at any criticism, constructive or otherwise. i've seen it a few times in the past year or two, and it irritates me and just makes me shake my head.

Yes, this. But I even understand that too at times because artistic creations are our babies, and seeing them criticized can be taken very personally.

Mainly though, I don't like artists telling me how I 'should' perceive things, it totally goes against how subjective in general art can be.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:56 am

i can understand an artist being upset, because yes we creators do get very attached to our creations...but you cannot just say "NO NEVER THINK THAT AGAIN HOW DARE YOU THIS IS MY THING F- OFF! MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY AND YOU CAN'T ENJOY MY CREATION ANYMORE" and just....bah. tantrums, plain and simple. childish.

i think artists should explain how they meant it...of course if you see things a certain way, but if they explain something from their own point of view, it might click into place and you might have an "oh yeah" moment. or you might not, but at least the creator tried and can just see it as a lost cause and...well probably ignore you, cause butting heads over it won't help anyone.

like earlier this year(or was it last year?) writing a story with my boyfriend, and one reader claimed our character came across as gary stuish because of his strength...but we explained he's based off the traditional anime shojo hero, and his strength will be explained more detailed later in the story. we got annoyed yes because who wants their character to be seen as gary stuish? but when you don't know the facts, you have to make a judgement from your perspective.

suppose i have an issue with that in the whole final quest....like how Wendy has said "oh they're not tree elves, they're FUNGUS elves. stfu and stop calling them that."...a recent pet peeve is how Wendy and Richard claimed the elves are omnisexual, yet we really have yet to actually see that, don't we? we get more often than not the same old same old heterosexual relationships. i'm straight and even I'M bored with all the straight relationships in a supposedly very sexually open race focused comic!

and i do still remember the whole fiasco at SoC...*face palms and shakes head*
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:22 am

Wait, what happened at SoC?

Yeah, the whole tree elves / fungi thing is a perfect example btw.

When I got a bad rating for my book on goodreads, I freaked out. Ialso knew though that the book was not my best work...so it challenged me to go and make my best work. And I know others will still bitch then. At some point you let it go. Maybe the Pinis have reached that point. It's completely impossible to please others. I hate to say it because I am a confrontational people pleaser: Do you like this? I really want you to! You don't? WHY NOT! OMG DIE DIE ! LOL.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:19 am

Oooh. That was my fault. But also Richard's fault. There was that panel in the prequel when Skywise remarked that the SunFolk were getting lighter skinned as well as taller from living in the Palace. (I guess as a result of them reverting to high ones.) I made the comment that I hoped that wouldn't happen because it wouldn't be great for the only dark skinned elf characters to go white. Someone else took it up and started a discussion about race and the issue of diversity in Elfquest-- and it got critical. Like pointing out that the main characters aren't too diverse- either in body type or facial characteristics. Some other people disgreed-- and eventually we moved on to talking about other things.

The in comes Richard. He grabs a quote from this discussion a few pages back and says "discuss". Okay-- so that brought it up again. And people had opinions. And he jumped in and started arguing that we shouldn't interpret the story that way because that's not what they meant. And so some people pointed out that you can't dictate how your audience is going to interpret things. Because meaning is a dialogue. And then he got all "yes we can!" Because he apparently totally rejects the idea that the reader is interpreting the book and that the creator doesn't have control over that. (Which is why, you know, you want to be self aware about your product!)

So it turns out, I was an English major. And I happened to know that this very issue had been discussed and explored in critical theory over the last fifty years and there was sort of a consensus reached. And it was basically that you don't have control over the meaning of your story and how it's going to be read once you publish it. There is no inherent and unchanging meaning that you magically infuse your story with and that it keeps forever. Meaning is created as your writing interacts with the reader and the public-- over and over again. And so I literally just quoted some critical theory at him.

He had gotten really huffy earlier and sounded pissed off. So I also threw in a comment in which I said something like "Are you really so sensitive about this that you can't take even a slight criticism from people who are obviously longtime fans?" Or something like that. And he just went off.

I think that gave him an excuse to get offended rather than lose an argument. He basically said "why are you here if you don't like our stuff?" And so I agreed that I should leave and said goodbye. And then, a short time later, he just shut off the forum. And that was it.

For what it's worth-- I did get up early that morning to delete the "Are you really so sensitive..." question-- not because I don't think the answer was 'yes', but because I realized that would give him an out to avoid continuing the discussion he had aggressively restarted. In the end, I kind of think he was a jerk about it-- and he did not make a convincing argument. Both those realizations were sad for me, because I had always had the impression that Richard was supposed to be clever or something. But I guess studying astronomy is different that analyzing books-- and teaching high school or editing comic books doesn't necessarily mean you know how to structure an argument.

I'm a jerk too. But I'm happy to own it. It was a shame to shut down the scroll, because it had a lot of people's writing and history on it. Facebook is so very different. But at least no one is disagreeing with anything they say there.

I'm not a people pleaser. Neither, I suspect, is Mr. Pini.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:22 am

@Elwing wrote:
@kathleen3.0 wrote:
I think the thing is that if you can't take criticism, don't go into the arts.
I respectfully disagree with that. Artists deserve respect. Criticism should be constructive. Of course it is often not that way, but having a sensitive soul should not discourage anyone from persuing a creative career.

Why should artists, who sell their stuff for a living, deserve special treatment? Why should they be treated better than, say, a plumber, who sells his handicraft for a living?
Is it because we perceive artists to have delicate psyche, which can't handle harsh realism too well?

You can pursue a creative career in the sense, that you only do your art for yourself, but if career means you publish it or have exhibition* or even dream of living from it, then you should be able to cope with even harsh criticism.



*why would you do this if not for the praise and recognition of other people? Well, it can cut both ways

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:53 am

@Elwing wrote:
@kathleen3.0 wrote:
I think the thing is that if you can't take criticism, don't go into the arts.
I respectfully disagree with that. Artists deserve respect. Criticism should be constructive. Of course it is often not that way, but having a sensitive soul should not discourage anyone from persuing a creative career.

You're kidding me, right?

Having a sensitive soul is like, being so overwhelmed by the glory of the mountains that you can't stop crying.

It's not being so overwhelmed that someone told you that your art features harmful elements that perpetuate racism that you have a flame war with them and then shut your forums down.

Also, Lunakat, pretty sure I brought up the racism in the first place. Then I ran like a coward(aka took a break because there's only so much stupid I can handle) and let you fight my battle for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:52 pm

Oh, sorry, I just didn't know what SoC was exactly (abbreviation), then I remembered Very Happy

Yeah, I am well aware of what happened with the whole paler/whiter thing - that discussion was interesting and made some really good points. I don't think it was handled well at all by Richard.... he definitely became defensive, not just toward Lunakat but toward someone else, I remember him saying, EXCUSE ME? Are you telling us what we *should* do? The whole thing was really uncomfortable. Kathleen also made some very good points with the racism and they're things I had always noticed from day 1 with EQ, things I just sort of ignored and rolled with. I'm very used to accidental/implied racism, it doesn't even make me blink anymore though.

I think it would've been best for him to stay out of that discussion entirely until it ended and then maybe address the commentary at the end, after cooling off and thinking about it. But he got into the fray and yeah it was several people being uncomfortable with it becoming even more uncomfortable... I mean, you just cannot dictate how people feel or what they perceive. EQ has always addressed very strong social issues in the comic, but the racism thing was very subtle at times yet obvious to me, and I regarded it as a byproduct of someone slightly naive in their perspective yet well-meaning. I daresay it even sometimes reads as the way the cone heads treated the trolls lol... I can even understand the defensiveness the Pinis would have about it, but then again if you think you're so open-minded, something will always come along and challenge you to broaden your perspective, and it's up to you in the end to either say, 'I've never viewed it that way before', or 'No, you're just wrong.' I mean, you cannot dictate people's perceptions and this is where I think the frustration ultimately came in.
You guys wrote some very interesting, strong arguments and I am actually glad you did. It makes me really sad that the forum was shut down so very abruptly, it felt very reactive even if it was something that was going to happen anyway eventually.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:13 pm

@Zadzi wrote:
[...].. he definitely became defensive, not just toward Lunakat but toward someone else, I remember him saying, EXCUSE ME? Are you telling us what we *should* do? The whole thing was really uncomfortable.
<Snip>
I think it would've been best for him to stay out of that discussion entirely until it ended and then maybe address the commentary at the end, after cooling off and thinking about it. But he got into the fray and yeah it was several people being uncomfortable with it becoming even more uncomfortable....

That may have been me, actually. Good times...? Heh. I remember being very surprised that he'd jumped in at all. It had been my perception that the Pinis deliberately stayed out of anything but the news threads. It seemed a good policy to me - I mean, their time is limited and fan discussions can eat serious time. And I figured they were avoiding things like what happened to Mercedes Lackey. She had been pretty active in her fan board but then one of her newer books echoed a well-liked fanfic on the site, probably not intentionally, but everything blew up from there. (As I understand it. I've heard about it, but was never a big fan of her stuff myself.)
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:20 pm

I remember reading up on that thread, a bit after the forum was closed down. I ended thinking he stated the whole thing as an excuse to shut down the forum.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:34 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
@Elwing wrote:
@kathleen3.0 wrote:
I think the thing is that if you can't take criticism, don't go into the arts.
I respectfully disagree with that. Artists deserve respect. Criticism should be constructive. Of course it is often not that way, but having a sensitive soul should not discourage anyone from persuing a creative career.

Why should artists, who sell their stuff for a living, deserve special treatment?

Ignoring people's criticism isn't special treatment. It's their prerogative.

A plumber who blows off criticism may wind up not getting customers. An artist who blows off criticism may lose their audience... or they may not. Anne Rice infamously said a few years ago that readers were "interrogating the text from the wrong perspective." (You can google her name and the phrase.) She was a laughingstock for weeks. Neil Gaiman wrote a column saying he understood her impulse, but it was always a bad idea to interact with the critics.

However. She still sold books. She still is selling books.

There's also criticizing the art, and criticizing the artists. Recently on another site, we were discussing how JK Rowling said "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child" would be her last venture into the HP universe. Someone replied, "Yeah, until she decides she wants more money and attention." Nothing was said there about the play, or Rowling's other work, by that person. That comment sparked questions about why the commentator targeted Rowling personally, rather than the quality of her work. People also brought up if Jim Butcher, John Scalzi, GRRM, etc. were also attention whores because they kept publishing books.

Criticism isn't always done for the purity of art -- jealousy, malice and "why aren't you writing/drawing/recording what I want?" are also reasons.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:24 pm

I agree. Which then raises the question-- where do we all fall on that spectrum? Because we have been pretty critical lately.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:03 pm

For me, I was somewhat invested in the story up to (and through) the issue (meaning the publication) with Shenshen's transformation, which I really did like. After that, it really fell apart for me. I think maybe if I am truthful, I was never THAT huge of an EQ fan, in comparison to others. The things I didn't care for even early on were easier to ignore but then became more problematic in FQ and seemed to take up more space, the pacing became more awkward as the story started to feel like mental gymnastics. It didn't read seamlessly anymore.

I thought it was maybe being my being spoiled with reading the past publications altogether and not as they're released monthly ... because that does screw up the story pacing. So I went back and read FQ from the beginning, several times, and yet it still seems very disjointed to me.

So. I don't know where that 'falls on the spectrum' exactly in terms of criticism , besides simply saying I've lost interest, have become 'disenchanted', if you will. I do, however, get a real kick out of reading the criticism here about the artwork, it's taught me a LOT. And also I will say that there's been some remarkably intelligent commentary as well. The posters are extremely observant and thoughtful and as much as the commentary hasn't always necessarily been very kind, it's been damn thorough if nothing else lol.

I know at some point there was a thread started about what there is to like, to keep things positive - or just more balanced. Maybe that would be good to resurrect?
I don't know if I could muster up any more besides, for example, I really like X panel, it's lovely, I like the way X looks, etc... I still have parts of the story I find really charming. It's just as a whole that I'm not so into it anymore. But I like the community here, I like the fan art, the fan fic, and seeing other people's perspectives. SO I'm just not sure how to answer the criticism question, really.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:29 pm

I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, we've been waiting for this for nearly 20 years. We've been expecting Wendy's masterwork. It doesn't feel like we're getting it. It's missing many of the special details (like background scenes) that really set EQ apart. And instead of Elfmom's inimitable finesse in the artwork (she used to do expressions I couldn't figure out how to make into prose) we have this copy-pasted, robotically-acted mash. (Not without its moments of transcendence, though.) And instead of a compelling story that plumbs the depths of living and being we have an autocratic New Age Alien-Think Moral Lesson with a navel-gazing emphasis on Cutter. Also a couple of cases of character murder. I feel like she's had plenty of time to do better.

On the other hand, 38 years is a loooong time to be working on the same project. It's not fair to expect her to have been devoting everything to EQ the whole time. Artistic need to stretch your wings aside, she did still have groceries to buy, mortgage/rent to pay, maybe even vacations, not to mention medical bills. Hip replacements are neither cheap nor quick to recover from. And the weight of expectations - hers and ours. I wouldn't be surprised to learn she just wanted to get it over with. I'm not sure I could really blame her if she did, though that doesn't mean I'd like it any better. (I still think I'd rather have seen Rayek left out of the story than this sad twisting of his best actions into some of his worst.)
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #17   Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:56 pm

The Rayek thing is when I started to really get turned off, Manga. It's weird because even though I knew he was always sort of a more complex character that I liked, I wasn't expecting to be so hung up on him to feel like something about his growth in earlier issues being retconned somehow in FQ, that made me kind of disappointed... and then there was the Timmain/Tam thing ... I dunno.

My favorite character development in FQ was Mender. I like how gray he became.

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