Fan project restrictions, guidelines, etc... (?)

I think parts of my question has been hashed out here amd there for years. Ive had some ideas rolling around in my head, and saw group fan projects here and there over the years, I have a few questions though, as I seem to seek out the extremes of odd exceptions, for some reason.

Anyway, the "Mothership", referring to WaRP Graphics in its varied forms or contexts, has generally had a "you can't profit from fan creations involving Elf Quest characters, etc, without rarified approval" as I understand it, and even general "just for fun" work is required to have the disclaimer as worded on the right side of this web page under the Latest Topics scroll.

Im not seeking anything to sidestep the disclaimer or putting credit where credit is due, circumvent any proper proceedures or amything like that, Im just trying to nail down standard proceedures and allowances for the following notions:

• recouping costs (material, permits, etc, not necessarily time) involved with a larger work, such as a video series, larp, convention, etc.
  
  *Sharing or negotiating the sharing of potential revenue if a project would become crowd fundable or monetized
  
  *Mixing of "properties", such as if one were to do a short clip of EQ characters singing the Loonie Toons opening in a similar form but with all re-recorded art, voices and music (nothing reused from EQ or WB other than likenesses)
  

That sort of thing. If we were to bring up some kind of group project involving (well, anything we could come up with, but presumably similar to Elfquest and/or crossing over or inspiration from other works) something thst brushes on the above and similar, what red tape is involved?

Also, if someone were to iterated through tropes and come up with something that may have been originally inspired by something established, but no longer has any characters, character types, settings, names, etc, how far removed does it have to be to be free (or free-er) of entanglement? If that makes sense? I know in music theres guidelines on how many notes in a row can be the same, how many words in a roe can be the same, etc, before opening up to plagiarism and ugliness (intentioned or not) but I dont know how that works with literature and other media.

Edit: I suppose if someone knows specifically what the fan work guidelines are and want to reiterate the official statement, it might be appropriate.

Im not trying to make issues, just have questions that float around, many, internally, going "thats not worth it, 'they' wouldn't allow it".

TrollHammer wrote:

Im just trying to nail down standard proceedures and allowances for the following notions:

• recouping costs (material, permits, etc, not necessarily time) involved with a larger work, such as a video series, larp, convention, etc.
  
  *Sharing or negotiating the sharing of potential revenue if a project would become crowd fundable or monetized
  
  *Mixing of "properties", such as if one were to do a short clip of EQ characters singing the Loonie Toons opening in a similar form but with all re-recorded art, voices and music (nothing reused from EQ or WB other than likenesses)
  

The extent of my knowledge only goes so far as fanfiction and fan art with the noted disclaimer. As for the specifics you mentioned above, that's more of a legal thing I'd suggest asking a lawyer about.

Especially this day and age where anyone can sue for anything

Kindredsoul wrote:

that's more of a legal thing I'd suggest asking a lawyer about.
Especially this day and age where anyone can sue for anything

Kindredsoul is right. So for example, when I made "Neverending Nights" - we used the "Neverwinter Nights" game engine. I reached out to them about selling them as DVDs.

They said we can't out right sell the DVDs - but, if we were to say - create a "Sponsor our site to support the bandwidth of downloads - and if you sponsor us for $10 or more, you get a free DVD" - then they'd look the other way.

We were fortunate because we had a great relationship with BIOWARE (makers of the NWN game).

Does it matter that Elfquest is published in different countries that have different laws?

Trollbabe wrote:

Does it matter that Elfquest is published in different countries that have different laws?

I think what matters is the person doing whatever - what the laws are for their country.

So for example, Trollhammer (assuming he lives in the US) would have to follow US laws, and not ignore it because the laws in Turkey (example) are different.

Like I said, for my part, I'm not trying to sidestep anything, just trying to figure out what's worth doing.

For example, if one were to do a riff on something else with an EQ theme in a one-off or web series or something, what it sounds like you're saying would be:
-Make a plan
-Pay for a lawyer to tell me what I might need to do, possibly more time if they have to search for anything I might be similar to
-Possibly pay whatever fees each party that MIGHT think I'm copying from might require, or negotiate some other situation that might get complicated when more than 2 parties are involved (if that is the case, not at hard if it's just me and one IP)
-potentially have the idea scrutinized, changed, etc by said above party(s)
-purchase any software, hardware, props, materials, etc that my idea may require,
-possibly hire others for any talent I'm not talented enough to mess with
-put whatever it is together and then figure out where it could be shared, posted, what have you, with whatever rules that site has
-hope that someone likes it.

That's what runs through my head whenever I think about anything more than typing a few letters on the same page. It turns into a mountain of obstacles and quickly escalating costs that suck any bit of fun out of it. When I see talk about something that might be fun for the group to try to mess with, I see then all that plus the difficulty of organizing the thing and bow out before even starting. I figured if anyone had had some insight to how some of the other projects were organized and could post here it might help someone like me who's a little less of a worry-wart overthinker than me to get somewhere with something.

I guess the main question I have these days is: most of the rules regarding profiting, funding, etc, were before modern crowdfunding, patreon, and whatnot, where costs to do something could be balanced by a group wanting to see something or have something come about (the 'Audio Movie' as an example of this, however, it's being done by the originator, so there's not as much red tape). But it's a chicken-egg issue: how do you get the ball rolling to get the costs (not profits, costs) paid for without anything to show for it to know if you can even do the thing you set out to do, or do you run out, do the thing, and hope it doesn't get shot down by cease and desists law suits, retroactive licensing costs, and so on....?

(I need to just go back to my cave, i'm guessing)

TrollHammer wrote:

I guess the main question I have these days is: most of the rules regarding profiting, funding, etc, were before modern crowdfunding, patreon, and whatnot, where costs to do something could be balanced by a group wanting to see something or have something come about (the 'Audio Movie' as an example of this, however, it's being done by the originator, so there's not as much red tape). But it's a chicken-egg issue: how do you get the ball rolling to get the costs (not profits, costs) paid for without anything to show for it to know if you can even do the thing you set out to do, or do you run out, do the thing, and hope it doesn't get shot down by cease and desists law suits, retroactive licensing costs, and so on....?

The most common way is making a prototype of what you're aiming to make.
So for example - say you wanted to make a roleplay gaming book.
You design the book. Pay for artists (out of your own pocket) to draw the monsters and images.
Test it out among friends - make sure it's good and clear.
Take it to press - pay for it out of your pocket.

Determine how much it would cost (to recoup artist cost + reprinting + whatever else).

Create a Kickstarter that says you're looking to print 500 of these. Set the KS goal to match what the cost is you determined to equal 500 (or a little more to make room for profit).

Create a Kickstarter.

Spend the rest of your days promoting it left and right as much as you can, everywhere you can.

Sit and pray, watching the KS getting funded (ideally).

Otherwise, you end up with a single prototype of your product and you're out the money.

BTW, regarding monsters and images, don't be discouraged if you can't draw well or book a really talented artist. I have the manuals from the original Dungeons and Dragons game. The artwork looks very amateurish. This was released at a time when Frank Frazetta and the Hildebrandt brothers were setting the art standards.

wouldn't it depend on what one is trying to do with the copyrighted material?

If someone "fan-made" a movie, paying for everything out of their own pockets and distributing this movie for free; I'm not sure if the owner of the copyright material would've have any legal claims against the movie-maker.

If one wants to sell their fan-made materials, it's something else. One would try to profit from copyrighted materials and the legal owner could rightfully sue one. I'm almost 100% sure, that explaining, that someone is not making profit but only trying to recover costs wouldn't hold any legal waters either.

Long story short, don't try to start a kickstarter with something that's not legally yours

The spirit of law is crystal-clear:
Anyone earning monetary benefit from the work of someone else without first obtaining their formal permission to do so, may be punished by law.

Now, that is only law.

Here, in France, we work more on tolerance and allowance than in many other countries.

Which is why, in the former Scrolls, I never waited for WaRP's permission to scan and work some images from Elfquest in order to offer avatars to be shared with no charge with potentially all Elfquest fans coming into that official fan site. Which is why, ALSO, I did HOWEVER soon warn, there, that IF any administrator or Wendy or Richard or the like was offended by the process, I would immediately suppress everything I shared that way.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

If someone "fan-made" a movie, paying for everything out of their own pockets and distributing this movie for free; I'm not sure if the owner of the copyright material would've have any legal claims against the movie-maker.

Even that's not entirely true. If the copyright owner feels what you're doing/have done, they can actually still sue someone (for "damages"). So for example, I go make this two hour ElfQuest fan film - but I do such a horrible job - that it becomes known for being horrible (say, like the Rebecca Black "Friday" song level) - WaRP can technically sue me for damages.

Now the way around it is creating (sticking to the fan film) a fan film - where it's based on the ElfQuest world - but you keep it vague enough (don't use any of the actual characters - create new characters) and such - you may be able to squeeze by.

This goes FAR more into it -
https://www.videomaker.com/how-to/legal/how-does-fair-use-apply-to-fan-fiction-video/

thanks, @Tymber for the clarification, I've also wondered if one could be sued for damages. Also thanks for the link, I'll have a read

@PCoquelin but you weren't making profit from your projects. It be pretty weird from a creator to prohibit people from using their creations as avatar or banner on the very fan side managed by the creator. Imagine Marvel telling fans not to use pictures of Marvel heroes or their names on a forum dedicated to Marvel, overseen by Marvel

Tymber wrote:

Miss Gillespie wrote:

If someone "fan-made" a movie, paying for everything out of their own pockets and distributing this movie for free; I'm not sure if the owner of the copyright material would've have any legal claims against the movie-maker.

Even that's not entirely true. If the copyright owner feels what you're doing/have done, they can actually still sue someone (for "damages"). So for example, I go make this two hour ElfQuest fan film - but I do such a horrible job - that it becomes known for being horrible (say, like the Rebecca Black "Friday" song level) - WaRP can technically sue me for damages.

Now the way around it is creating (sticking to the fan film) a fan film - where it's based on the ElfQuest world - but you keep it vague enough (don't use any of the actual characters - create new characters) and such - you may be able to squeeze by.

This goes FAR more into it -
https://www.videomaker.com/how-to/legal/how-does-fair-use-apply-to-fan-fiction-video/

This is exactly the kind of info I was wanting... And I will go into it (the link) after a good nights sleep to (sober) rest up and fully appriciate the verbage ans technical jargon contained within.. Been a long enough day it doesnt want to end, and am using der fansite to wind down. (Appologies to all languages and people I may transgress in the interum)

But as Tymber pointed out, these days "well intentioned" "good faith" work is punished and law suits abound without being considered frivolous, for damages that may have never been but in some AU of an imagination it might could have resulted in a reduction of what would have might been, if I am reading my "proper grammatical structure for the time traveler" correctly. Im being ridiculous, I know, but thats kind of the point... Or rather, the fear I have. I know that I, personally, have no real ability to do anything eye popping or anything more than a groaner's chance in an open mike night, but I shouldnt live in fear that Im going to be sued for a million bucks I dont have because I tried to have some fun with a few characters I enjoy reading about, or a concept I like. (Several lines removed for prudence) Anyway, I wanna see EQ go as far as possible, and would love to promote it any way I can, or help whowever I can to take it where it should go, but I am always afraid of the "NO!" if that makes sense, and its confusing to me that I should feel that a well intentioned effort be... Well, I guess Tymber explained that, didnt he... No body wants a nobody ruining whatever could be...

@Miss_Gillespie: not at all trying to undercut what you are saying, but I think what PC was getting at is they are, perhaps, a little less sensitive in france to both "sweating the small stuff" and "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" type things, as long as it's within reason. Not commenting on whether this is right, wrong, admirable, or otherwise, but my fear, and experience, is that common sense isnt so common, and reason isnt so reasonable... (I write this flinching, knowing my son is already having the hardest time with this sort of thing and its only going to get worse as time goes on, again, from experience.) No, its not reasonable for a fanbase not to use what they are enamoured of... What would they be doing/posting on a fan site if they couldnt use names, images, likenesses, etc of what the site is about... Hurts my inebriated head just trying to make sure Im writing it correctly,  but Im trying to figure out where the various lines are... The word "Wolverine" or... Lets use a more meta character... "Deadpool"... In a sentance... Cant even organize a "when I say "kittens" I really mean that character's name (because besides clarifying the character's name, its premeditation), but then I use a screen cap or... Dare I say it... His logo... as an avatar... and now I have to fear a quick witted katana skewering me in 15 minutes ( middle of the night)... Gee thanks... Anyway. Humor aside, what Im getting at is theres fan works for things that are marginally tolarated (type "abridged" in conjunction with any anime you enjoy), and some that are swept under the rug (again, "crack" with your preferred Japanese animation), but in my opinion these things are part of a heathy fan base... Fans wouldnt make crack videos if they didnt adore the series... They wouldnt waste the time... And I wouls love to waste as much time as I could on Elf Quest... I guess, as an example, Id make crack videos if there was video to edit, and since there isnt, Id liek to make some video for such a thing... But I've watched over the years, and Im afraid... Theres not as much evidence as Id like to see that it would be accepted with well mannered joviality, but rather a wagging finger... I dont know anyone personally, other than one PM from RP about a game I attempted amidst all the PHP site mishmash, and it disnt give me the best feelings... I guess Im just still gunshy from the experience and dont want to willingly and intentionally step on a landmine. If Im making any sense at all...

EDIT:

I read that article, pretty much sums up the conventional fanfic cycle, and its great to know we could, in theory, be sued at any moment for "delution of the brand." Not likely but there it is. Still didnt cover, say, a kickstarter for funding the startup of a "studio" to make fan art in, or how patreon works in the current cycle of things (say someone makes spoofy fanfic on a lot of different storylines, say star wars AND star trek, and their readership or viewership put into a patreon for the writer, not for any specific storyline, but to the writer... And how does vblogging "in character" on a subject fall into it? Guess Ill have to keep web-crawling... Lol. Thanks for the article, @Tymber!

Not that Im particularly feeling it right now but what if I were to offer printing and binding of fan fiction, just as a service for a fee? I know, should ask a lawyer but lawyering sucks so much joy out of things. I am planning on binding some of my own stuff and if I like it was considering offering it, but as its material and labor intensive, where does that fit in, if anyone knows? My family has accumulated a lot of... Odds and ends for printing and whatnot, my dad used to run a press way way back and has kept a lot of stuff.. Even has a linotype press I used to pretend was a car (the ink pad looked like a steering wheel, and the ratchet looked like a turn signal lever). Dunno if that would interest anyone anyway, but this is the kind of thing that pops upin my mind when I cant do anything else.