Final Quest #11

Lunakat wrote:

The whole "Winnowil is the baddie bad who made everyone make bad decisions with their lives" is really tired at this point- and, imho, is just bad storytelling (weren't we talking about that earlier?). It's just a variation on having everyone all over the world be neatly related. What caused this thing? Winnowil!

I prefer to think that, if it is canon, that Aurek is deliberately lying because he is in an emotional space in which he prefers not to take responsibility for his own past.

Hey, many others don't like the tired old Evil Winnie plot device either, but this bad storytelling is how the Pinis have chosen to use Winnowill ever since… Kings of the Broken Wheel at LEAST. Since Siege at Blue Mountain probably. "Enslaved and enthralled" is what was told to us in Kahvi. Maybe Aurek is lying, but there's no particular reason for us to think he would, he's not presented as an untruthful or self-deceiving character. Prefer to think what you like, I disagree.

Lunakat wrote:

Elves have a tendency to get lost in trance. We know that. We've seen it. Rockshapers lose themselves in their work. Look at Savah's lifemate. Did Savah force him to do that? No. So why assume the Gliders were all forced to behave the exact same way Aurek did-- the same way Orolin did and the same way the guiders of the Palace did... and Suntop did?  You get my point.

Aurek was just engrossed in his task. It made sense, given the Glider culture. I refuse to accept the lame Winnowil excuse. That's just as lame as claiming you got a PHD to please your parents. Hell no-- you did that. Take some credit.

We've seen a rockshaper (in the Sun Village) and a Firstcomer (in the Palace) lose themselves in their work, we've also seen many gliders and rockshapers alike (in Blue Mountain) be subjugated and turned into living machines. We heard about Winnowill feeding Egg potions back in Original Quest, and I refuse to believe those were just electrolytes and vitamin supplements.

I think it's far more likely Aurek was a victim of Winnowill than that Winnowill is a victim of bad press.

Multi-Facets wrote:

But some elves, like Moonshade, might be tired of living. I know she's not looking to leave her body, but she doesn't want to be part of the world anymore. Being in the Palace is making her happy, but she's still retreating from a world she can't handle now, and that makes me sad for her.

As long as she does not pull a Yun Krim I'm fine with such individual developement. I hope she will find HER way and be happy again with it.

Man, I loved Aurek in the Kahvi series. He was awesome. I loved his snake pad with the microbrewery and really wanted to see more of him telling elves more about their roots. He talked about sharing breath with Timmain or whatever when he was injured and ready to die. He was some kind of bad ass shaman type.
If I'm to be perfectly frank, I don't really care what the reasons are that he stated - he was a damn good character and it feels slightly wasteful to have him be back to the Orlion (or however you spell his name) task. I think the Winnowill being evil thing IS tired...but story-wise, it's like she probably manipulated his tendency to get lost in his task to her advantage....though now it's obviously that his task is so much more noble () so it's okay to just do that all over again. Honestly, this is why I don't freakin' like the palace.

For me, two things sort of ruined the Elf Quest story :  The palace and the humans. It took me FOREVER to read Shards. I just didn't like it because it encompassed those 2 things that I already was annoyed by, and then put Winnowill in the center, which pissed me off further, since it seemed so lazy. When I finally read Shards, I was like, Meh, whatever.

I was writing earlier some more stuff about KotBW but also just fantasizing that it would've been great if, when the palace came apart during Shards, its pieces exploded all over the place. You could've gotten the pieces falling randomly across the territories of various elves/ elf tribes. You could've had the story be about the Wolfriders and Rayek & Co. going around to collect those pieces and meeting those other elves along the way, getting to know them....all kinds of adventures. The whole thing with needing to send out a call would be superfluous, really, because they could've taken Sunstream with them and he would find the Wavedancers because they had a palace shard in their territory....you could've still had the human interference....and you wouldn't have needed to split the tribe at all *for* that reason, but for another one.
...Granted, I really, really like Ember's story arc from the late Hidden Years (except for the lame shape changed Winnowill animals bit...that pissed me off and just seemed so, so lazy) and especially Wildhunt, which I really liked....but it could've been Ember's tribe just hanging out and waiting while other elves went on the shard collection adventure and it would be about meeting other tribes and random elves.

Embala wrote:

Multi-Facets wrote:

But some elves, like Moonshade, might be tired of living. I know she's not looking to leave her body, but she doesn't want to be part of the world anymore. Being in the Palace is making her happy, but she's still retreating from a world she can't handle now, and that makes me sad for her.

As long as she does not pull a Yun I'm fine with such individual developement. I hope she will find HER way and be happy again with it.

Wait, what do you mean by pulling a Yun? What did she do? Do you mean adopting a human?

I do see Moonshade as soul-weary but I also saw her as hiding. I think she's had a harder time of it because Wolfriders always have their blood as a reminder of the immortality they cannot have, unless they get it removed altogether. Even Skywise, who always sort of wanted to be immortal (although it was more about thinking like an immortal) had his wolf blood removed under extreme duress. So I can't imagine how hard all of this must be for Moonshade, a traditionalist.
You know, I think the time apart from Strongbow, with Ember's tribe, really is what triggered all of this. It makes a lot of sense.

Zadzi wrote:

Embala wrote:

Multi-Facets wrote:

But some elves, like Moonshade, might be tired of living. I know she's not looking to leave her body, but she doesn't want to be part of the world anymore. Being in the Palace is making her happy, but she's still retreating from a world she can't handle now, and that makes me sad for her.

As long as she does not pull a Yun I'm fine with such individual developement. I hope she will find HER way and be happy again with it.

Wait, what do you mean by pulling a Yun? What did she do? Do you mean adopting a human?

Maybe that'll turn out to be the ultimate sign of an elfin midway-crisis.
Which of course would mean that Tyleet got hers rather early.







I think Embala meant pull a Krim.

I like that idea; elves who adopt a human when they're in a midlife crisis! I want to see Strongbow's face when she does this!

I can understand that Moonshade is weary of life and wants to commit suicide like Krim did, so she can be even closer to Crescent.

It would make sense if Moonshade's time away from Strongbow, with Embers tribe, triggered this... But that is some time ago now, isn't it? They had Freetouch and raised her and there was never a hint in that period that something was different about Moonshade...

The couples Skywise/Timmain and Rayek/Winnowill are somehow complementary : the colour schemes, the heights...
Also, the cry from beyond and the humming strike me as similar

Multi-Facets wrote:

But some elves, like Moonshade, might be tired of living. I know she's not looking to leave her body, but she doesn't want to be part of the world anymore. Being in the Palace is making her happy, but she's still retreating from a world she can't handle now, and that makes me sad for her.

That's what I feel like, too. To me Moonshade was showing so many signs of depression before Ruffel's death prompted her to say "screw it all" -- her somberness at Shukopek's birth, no longer taking joy in her craft, her muted despair at what Chitter did with the baby bird. (One of the ways I always know I'm sliding into depression is when I start crying when I drive past roadkilled critters.) And I can't figure out whether her retreat into the Palace is positive forward movement for her, or just retreat and avoidance. Maybe she needs to cocoon for a time (not literally) and heal a bit and emerge back into the world stronger, or maybe she's just moving toward death.

Timmain somehow just knowing what Skywise told Cutter gives me serious pause. After all this buildup, I'm going to be a little disappointed if Timmain doesn't end up being portrayed as a bit sinister, or at least so alien as to be very morally gray. Even with all the fluffy dialogue about spirits, all the elves being one, etc., I'm not sure that Timmain's actions and the Sun Folk retreating so completely from life outside the Palace aren't meant to be a little creepy. Or at least sad.

Multi-Facets wrote:

But some elves, like Moonshade, might be tired of living. I know she's not looking to leave her body, but she doesn't want to be part of the world anymore. Being in the Palace is making her happy, but she's still retreating from a world she can't handle now, and that makes me sad for her.

I always thought this was what drove elves like Egg, Aurek or the some of the Glider rockshapers... or even Orolin... to withdraw into their trances and dedicate their whole beings to their tasks. Think how long they lived-- in a mountain or desert oasis or flying ship. After a while, you would have just done and experienced everything you needed to. There would be no point. To become completely what you do and what you love-- that would seem transcendent. Heck, human beings have been known to do that-- even with our limited life spans. We've all heard of artists who simply sacrifice.. or devote, depending on how you look at it... their lives and beings to their crafts. I could understand that. This is just a more extreme version of that.

That's kind of why I reject the idea of Winnowil forcing them into it. Because that is just a reductive explanation.

ErinC1978 wrote:

That's what I feel like, too. To me Moonshade was showing so many signs of depression before Ruffel's death prompted her to say "screw it all" -- her somberness at Shukopek's birth, no longer taking joy in her craft, her muted despair at what Chitter did with the baby bird. (One of the ways I always know I'm sliding into depression is when I start crying when I drive past roadkilled critters.) And I can't figure out whether her retreat into the Palace is positive forward movement for her, or just retreat and avoidance. Maybe she needs to cocoon for a time (not literally) and heal a bit and emerge back into the world stronger, or maybe she's just moving toward death.

Sometimes, in life, you do just need to take a "time out" from the world. I completely agree with this-- and it seems very relateable to me.

Has any mortal elf stayed at the Palace for an extended time besides Moonshade? Because I sure as hell can't see the Go-Backs staying for long, and none of the Wolfriders have been able to either. Moonshade is the only mortal elf in there . She doesn't fit in, knows it, and yes, she is hiding. Taking a time out in some way. The Palace goes against 'the way' entirely, no wonder she is so 'depressed' - she is in a way forcing herself to stay, I think, and that might be another reason why she is depressed.
The palace embraces endlessness and immortality. If you are a mortal elf, you will have problems being in there over the long term, and it's been shown that the others are very uncomfortable in there for anything beyond shorter jaunts. The immortal elves seem to have more of a choice about whether to stay in or leave... Newstar very clearly made the choice to not stay in there last we checked. And she's the only other one I can think of which is technically a Wolfrider by blood.

I think Timmain sort of screwed the Wolfriders in a way by giving them this 'huge gift' of being part of the world of two moons. They're going to have to somehow give up their wolf blood to integrate this piece of the puzzle fully. I just see that being a major theme in the FQ. Winnowill said it early on and wanted to collect the pureblooded ones only and it's not without reason. Timmain knows it, but is yapping on and on about choice. In the end it really will be about choice...do you or do you not choose to give your blood?

That's really interesting.

Timmain's "gift" was incredibly profound and basically saved her people -- at a time when the Palace seemed irrecoverable. But now, perhaps, the tables have turned again.

Maybe that's why she chose Skywise. Because he was going to be the first one to take the next step. Maybe that's why "all this is happening now and not before"? Maybe the choice for the Wolfriders is to fully integrate into the world... or to fully leave it.

Redhead Ember wrote:

I think Embala meant pull a Krim.

Note to myself: *Never post when you are in a hurry! - Never.*
Redhead got it right. Thanks for correction.

ErinC1978 wrote:

And I can't figure out whether her (Moonshade) retreat into the Palace is positive forward movement for her, or just retreat and avoidance. Maybe she needs to cocoon for a time (not literally) and heal a bit and emerge back into the world stronger, or maybe she's just moving toward death.

Years ago - at the time Discovery came out - it was discussed that Sunstream developed towards being a High One - or already was one.

And Wendy asked: Who else has the potential be become a High One?

I thought it would be Newstar. The "elfiest of the elves" was the most likely candidate. Now it seems Moonshade will be the one.

On the other hand ... all the Sunfolk develops into High Ones slowly.

I don't like the new format for the preview. I had an easier time reading it on my phone than on my laptop. Prime reason I never get the digital copies.

Maybe this is better.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/Previews/25-091?page=0

The first one wasn't from Dark Horse's official page, which actually kinda confused me at first.

I was wondering if all the Wolfriders that decide to give up their blood have to have their soul names revealed. Or even if they don't decide to give up their blood, maybe there's some kind of pivotal moment having to do with the hive consciousness... but then that happened before in Shards so I am not sure. But I sometimes wonder if there's some correlation between immortality and soul names. What if that's reason Cutter's freaking out? Something knows his soul name. Only the Wolfriders have secret soul names and what if this is something else they have to sacrifice if they want to become 'more' somehow? Just kind of thinking about that.I can't imagine that being a very comforting progression for them, no matter how much they want their own consciousness to grow or whatever...

Probably not, because Skywise's soul name is still private-- and so is Windkin's, presumably.

Wouldn't have to have imply something that would happen in the future?


Anyway; can I just take a moment to mention how impressive Korafay's silhouette is from the back? Seriously, her hair is almost wider than she's tall!

Well, then- probably not-- because Cutter had to recognize Leetah to get to the core of her, even though she has no soul name and is immortal. I think Timmain voluntarily shared herself with Strongbow in OQ because that was how she knew how to communicate, and was the level at which her people had been used to sharing their minds. That seemed like a cultural divide. But it doesn't seem there is any indication this would happen to any elf against his/her will-- either because he/she is immortal or living in the Palace.

In other news, yes! Korafaye's silhouette is awesome!

Seriously, girl's got some wavy troll doll action going on!

Hey, guys, can someone tell me if they know what happened with that elf Suntop was communicating with during the Hidden Years 9.5?
I was rereading it yesterday and Suntop was communicating with Rayek about a lone elf he'd sensed was living underneath Sorrow's End. And then right as Rayek was answering it to investigate, he realizes he can't travel with the palace because of the whole issue with Cutter.
It can't possibly be Dr. Dre since the other elf can send. I guess it was probably nothing, but it was a bit intriguing.

Wouldn't that have been Ahdri?

Wasn't it pre-destruction?

That was Door! I remember now! That set up the forevergreen stuff...

No wonder we forgot.

Oh, that makes perfect sense.
God, I hated Forever Green.
Thanks, Kathleen