Final Quest #11

Redhead Ember wrote:

And what if Shushen just really loved eggplant?

Zadzi wrote:

PS - Why does Auroree look so weird and different now?

A shower.
Some clean clothes.

Heh. No doubt. But I mean her face looks different.
Aurek's as well, actually.


@Kathleen - You're right, that 'eggplant' seems to have scales on it, I just noticed.

Come on guys. Who cares what the plant is? How can that possibly matter? It's an alien world. It's not an eggplant and it's not prickly pear cactus. It's some alien fruit. It can be whatever it wants.

To be honest, I'm insulted. As a reader, and as someone who once was a fan, this comic insults my intelligence, my artistic sensibilities, and my favourite genres. This is a farce. It plays off like a badly written fanfic done by someone with a very shallow understanding of the series.

Really makes you wish you could sue for custody of fictional characters, doesn't it?

kathleen3.0 wrote:

To be honest, I'm insulted. As a reader, and as someone who once was a fan, this comic insults my intelligence, my artistic sensibilities, and my favourite genres. This is a farce. It plays off like a badly written fanfic done by someone with a very shallow understanding of the series.

If you don't mind, go into some more detail about your thoughts, Kathleen - we're pretty much of the same mind on this and I'm interested for you to elaborate.

iiiii....am gonna have to partially agree. usually seems kathleen and i have different point of views i think, but this time i think we're on the same page. final quest feels like it's asked for a LOT of suspension of disbelief and dumbing down of intelligence to read. the whole cutter/timmain thing seems to so far be the first thing that my brain cannot put down or figure out. that's pretty much it which is...kinda sad i think.

my opinons- glad to see the same sex couple..though dart and mender? mildly surprising. really would have though if dart were involved, it'd be kimo. but there is an unexpected...tenderness that doesn't feel shallow at all between them. so i don't really mind it.

moonshade losing her wolfblood. surprised yet unsurprised. and was it just me, or did it seem like her eyes were different in the panel where skywise and leetah flank her? she had the old fashion eyes where they were shades of color, darker for the pupils...yet leetah and skywise had the black still. but hers looked very different for some reason. though this definitely makes me feel like future quest is being ripped to shreds. unless moonshade dies, and strongbow goes instead because that's what she wanted.

timmain and skywise...i will agree with..someone who said it. she seems very malevolent now, and it does feel rather like she's brainwashed him with sex, resulting in the whole "every one must be immortal!"...sounds very winnowill actually. so yeah, waiting to see where that goes.

and the timmain/cutter thing? i just...honestly...can't. it makes absolutely no sense to me. i don't even understand the point of WHY. this feels like a serious ass retcon, cause as far as i can think, there have been NO hints at all the entire series towards this. and to be honest at this point, i'm getting some serious cop out vibes. blah.

Heh. Timmain shapechanged into a younger version of Cutter.

Zinegirl wrote:

Heh. Timmain shapechanged into a younger version of Cutter.

Nope. Same age. Just an immortal version of him - no facefur.

Here's the thing: I never had any kind of idea what I wanted/expected Final Quest to be. The story the Pinis wrote was always interesting in OQ and sometimes wavered, but even when it wavered and got slightly silly/unbelievable, I felt I (and probably a lot of others) could still rely on the characters to keep it going in some way, to have something authentic and worthwhile.
Ember found her footing through slipping and falling initially while learning to be chief.
Skywise learned his advice was not always considered welcome.
Moonshade learned what it was like to be parted from her mate, and dealt with resentment.
We saw the darker side of Scouter's insecurities about not being able to be protective as he's liked to.
Cutter struggled with stagnation and his grudge with Rayek.
Rayek learned to make peace with Cutter, and forged a relationship with his own daughter.
Treestump found a passion...
Aurek is a pretty interesting guy and has a cool snake and likes to make his own wine...

...I could keep going. My point being is that throughout the years, regardless of the dumbing down, we at least had character development and depth (except for Forever Green. UGH.), and we don't have that anymore.
The characters are, in a way, gone. i want to say they aren't the focus anymore, but it's more like they are and we're supposed to just go along with what we're told.

1- Moonshade wants immportality, but we never saw her desire to be in the Palace as anything but temporary escapism. We saw a lot of that, saw her doing nothing in particular, she never really seemed to connect with anyone else there except to chime in on the love fest. All of a sudden she's crying and talking to leetah about being torn between two desires. Really?? I don't buy it.

2- Dart and Mender are not a couple I believe. I mean, I'm happy there's finally an official gay couple and everything in Elfquest. But there weren't any feelings before on either end. Suddenly Mender is like,THERE'S NO ONE LIKE YOU, DART. Where is this coming from? Why are we just supposed to go along with it? I never saw the two as having ANYTHING in common, really. Dart never seemed like he even had respect for Mender. In fact, quite the opposite lately. And then it flips. Really?? I don't buy it!

3- Windkin being melodramatic in missing Ahdri. Finds out she's still alive, they have a reunion and then he's off banging Auroree. Look, I know some years have passed, I know elfin sexuality operates differently etc.. But, what the hell? I don't even believe Windkin's missing of Ahdri in the first place anymore. It's not reliable. I know he's a weirdo, but he's also struck me as highly sensitive in the past.

4- Skywise. We've talked a lot about this. He's just coming off more and more as brainwashed.

5- Wavedancers seem like they're getting dumber somehow. They've been told to be unafraid after Surge died and now they seem like they have nothing to push against. There's been almost ZERO character development in the Wavedancers. Lost opportunity. I'm not going to much care when they die/if they die.

6- This kind of pisses me off the most, but I've read Wendy commenting often whenever there's a criticism about relationships or development in Elfquest that no, no, you're seeing that through human eyes. These are elves. It's different. You know what? No.
The writer is the author is the AUTHORITY on the matter, but when that authority cannot back up certain things in a way that connects to audience then the authority becomes shaky, and then it's lost. The narrative needs reliability. Suspension of belief also requires a level of reliability, otherwise you're constantly taking the writer's words with proverbial grains of salt, until you're freakin' parched. By then, you really don't believe anything you're reading. I mean, you might think it's a cool *idea* , but you're no longer emotionally invested in the story.
And that's how you lose respect from readers.

I agree Zadzi-- that kind of response to criticism really doesn't fly. Because what's being pointed out is character development-- and no matter what the background of your characters, they need to have believable character development.

Here's my new thought about how this might turn out-- this moment between Timmain and Cutter. What if she is simply trying to explain to him an abstract and esoteric idea-- and he freaks out because he takes her literally? I used to have this problem with my mom all the time when I was going to college. She'd ask what I was studying-- I'd tell her-- and she'd get all pissed off because she misunderstood what I was talking about. Cutter is a simple kind of dude.

so...you think she's speaking metaphorically and not literally? that maybe the "your flesh lives on in me" might just refer to the fact they are genetically related? his blood is her blood? i could live with this honestly.

though i'm gonna agree with person who said it(WHY CAN'T I REMEMBER NAMES?!), very few shapeshifters turn out to be good, or something to that effect.

No- I was just kidding. I'm sure she means it literally. But wouldn't it be funny if that were what happened?

It would be awesome if she meant it esoterically and Cutter wigs the hell out because it's literal, and then takes off some of his clothes and goes running naked through the forest.

....and that would be the shot of Leetah holding him, trying to explain to him that it wasn't meant to be taken literally

*reads*

*sighs*

Zazdi and so many others have already spoken many of my disappointments. I'm at the point where I'm thinking someone OTHER than Wendy is drawing and writing FQ. To me, it's the soul of the story that's entirely missing here.
       

wingthing, I'm looking into some lawyers if you're interested

Can anyone explain to me why Moonshade HAD to lose her wolfblood to chose the stars? If she simply didn't want to die (of old age because even the immortals are still vulnerable to things like starvation, disease and clubs to the head), I suppose that's one thing. But the High Ones were space-faring long before they had magic, even before they were immortal.

And the central question of FQ: when did we go from "death is not the enemy, it just is" and "new life to replace old" to "nothing has to die or be killed!" (Nothing, huh? Ask your kale and spinach salad how alive it feels.)

Zadzi wrote:

1- Moonshade wants immportality, but we never saw her desire to be in the Palace as anything but temporary escapism. We saw a lot of that, saw her doing nothing in particular, she never really seemed to connect with anyone else there except to chime in on the love fest. All of a sudden she's crying and talking to leetah about being torn between two desires. Really?? I don't buy it.

THIS

This is why I'm having a problem with the whole deal with Moonshade. And why I'm always asking myself the same question, manga.

I'm sorry, but a few panels of her looking all awe inspired within the Palace in her new duds just doesn't cut it for me. A handful of panels of her BRIEFLY telling Strongbow how she feels in their den doesn't cut it for me either.  

The way it HAS been done only tells me as the reader that this was a dramatic grasp for straws to slap *something* dramatic into the story line to get a rise out of fans. Yes, it worked, but as a Moonshade fan, it feel like a insulting slap to her as a character.

Sorry I'm sounding so negative  It's why I've kept myself from joining the discussions in the past

Zadzi wrote:

6- This kind of pisses me off the most, but I've read Wendy commenting often whenever there's a criticism about relationships or development in Elfquest that no, no, you're seeing that through human eyes. These are elves. It's different. You know what? No.
The writer is the author is the AUTHORITY on the matter, but when that authority cannot back up certain things in a way that connects to audience then the authority becomes shaky, and then it's lost. The narrative needs reliability. Suspension of belief also requires a level of reliability, otherwise you're constantly taking the writer's words with proverbial grains of salt, until you're freakin' parched. By then, you really don't believe anything you're reading. I mean, you might think it's a cool *idea* , but you're no longer emotionally invested in the story.
And that's how you lose respect from readers.

Yeah, I agree with you and Lunakat that that's a copout. You can make the elves' relationships and sexualities work very differently from our own, but there have to be enough dots there for the reader to connect. You can't just say "But they're elves!" and call it a day. Well, obviously Wendy proves that you can indeed say it, but that doesn't mean the reader will buy it.

Dart and Mender's scene together in this issue was sufficiently charming that it sold me on them, but you're totally right that there was very little buildup, and also about Windkin's pain over Ahdri being undercut by later scenes. For me it's not just that he goes and gets it on with Aroree -- it's Ahdri's line about "one who decides to fly elsewhere" and that after Aroree and Windkin get together, we don't see continuing connection on the page between Windkin and Ahdri. Or on the other side of the coin, we aren't given any inklings that Windkin having spent so much time thinking she was dead has unsettled their bond somehow. The whole business just makes Windkin seem incredibly, er, flighty. It's possible later issues will develop this in ways that work for me, but right now it's disappointing. Especially because I found the scene when Windkin meets Ahdri again and initially pulls away from her genuinely affecting. There's potentially an interesting story there, but it's not on the page.

The elves being polysexual has been well established at this point, but in the earlier books you also often see fallout or at least trepidation when members of established couples expand outward in ways that go beyond a roll in the hay, even when it eventually works out. Back in Hidden Years, Scouter worries over Dewshine's feelings before he's able to establish that she's more than cool with it. Mender's jealousy eventually cools, and he and Ember seem to end up as happy occasional lovemates after she gravitates toward toward Tier, but it doesn't happen instantaneously. Even if elves don't see banging anyone and everyone as taboo, we also haven't seen much evidence that serious love connections between them are so incredibly fluid that they dissolve and reform in the breeze without even the elves in them having much to say about it.

Thing is, we do get that one scene with Mender, Dart, and Freetouch, where we're told they have a connection, but the way it turns out, it seems like Freetouch and Mender are lovemates, not Dart and Mender. So this whole thing about Mender and Dart wanting a deep connection is completely out of left field.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Thing is, we do get that one scene with Mender, Dart, and Freetouch, where we're told they have a connection, but the way it turns out, it seems like Freetouch and Mender are lovemates, not Dart and Mender. So this whole thing about Mender and Dart wanting a deep connection is completely out of left field.

True -- Mender is like, "Dart's abs, hot!" and then he and Freetouch bone.

It's funny, isn't it, that in all his talk about how he and Dart have so much in common (you made baby with my niece, etc), Mender completely leaves out "and I slept with your sister"?

Yeah- being polysexual doesn't mean having no feelings about things.

Lunakat wrote:

It's funny, isn't it, that in all his talk about how he and Dart have so much in common (you made baby with my niece, etc), Mender completely leaves out "and I slept with your sister"?

LOL Lunakat. It's too true.


Erin, you're right...they did struggle with their own feelings. I remember all those conflicts, it's what made it all connect. Scouter talking about Dewshine recognizing and feeling so helpless initially. Even Mender having an issue with playing a golden-haired Rayek to a black-haired Cutter, and how Yun told him jealousy was a human thing, and to get over it. And he did eventually, by making peace with Tier.

Sigh. I miss those moments. Maybe they seem too trivial or something to Wendy now, because she's trying to do 'bigger' or something for FQ. It's just too bad, because those little touches were what made EQ so 'real' while being so alien/fantasy.

I really don't mean to sound like I am bitching so much even though I know I am. I am, however, truly grateful there is some fantastic fanfic / writing / artwork here on this site, from very talented people, to delve into and explore different possibilities in the story and with the characters I grew to love. I'm using it as my personal shield to ward off these tepid installments !

In regards to the moonshade thing, I do have to agree that this turn of events is out of character for her. After the scene where she and Strongbow show (Tier?) their bond And what a wolfrider has been to them for (thousands of?) years... then "naw, its been 3 or so more decades, on to the next thing."

After studying the first couple of issues of the OQ today, it almost seems like WP remembered there was a female elf way back at the beginning that longed for a "safe place to be away from humans", aka Nightfall. While I do feel Nightfall is as much a wolfrider as any, the introduction to her character leaned toward her doing whatever it took to ensure safety from humans, in contrast to Moonshade (guess a writer could get their characters mixed up with names like moon and night?), who has backed Strongbow up time and time again when he has butted heads with Cutter about not being "Now" or "Wolf" enough. Now (just a short while after the aforementioned sharing of self) she's "more progressive" than Cutter? I think this was supposed to be Nightfall, but either she forgot, or it didnt have enough tension as splitting Moonshade and Strongbow up.

...me thinks it still falls under Winnowill, seriously. cause she was always the one who did the "pure and beautiful, unchanging as the stars!"

or maybe the wolfblood somehow...lessens whatever abilities an elf can/can't have, just as the world of two moons has the draining effect. if she kept the wolfblood, maybe she would hit a barrier in her learning...like she wouldn't be able to learn as much as say the sunfolk have because the palace wouldn't be able to affect her like it does them. conjecture of course. but it's an idea?

..the only good thing about FQ being so sucky is it makes me look even more forward to Wingthing's new stories, which just...ease the ill feelings and help me enjoy elfquest again<3

Amen, Vaeri! How about that Alternaverse, amirite guys? If only the Pinis knew how to wrangle plot twists with even a hundredth of Wingthing's finesse.