Final Quest #14

That said-- letting Rayek go ballistic on the Djun is not such a bad idea. What's the worst that could happen? He kills most them before getting himself killed? Then Winnowil would be freed from his codependent grasp and end up back at the Palace, where Timmain says she (and all the other spirits) can handle her and heal her. Sounds like a win-win.

Maybe Venka hasn't thought this all through. Or maybe she has-- and just doesn't want her dad to end up dead or possessed. But really- I say she should stop being so sentimental. Wing thing is right-- this is the ideal outcome.

She went all batshit on him...and understandably. The only problem here is that the scenes are so short so we're not really getting the full arc of the damage done, but it's done. It's a tiny snippet of a very important scene and I think we have very strong opinions about it because there's a lot left to project.
Part of me likes that Venka went off. It's nice to see characters step out of their comfort zone behavior. The other part of me is like, DUDE. The guy is basically brain damaged. He's a genius with certain details, sure, but he is still BRAIN DAMAGED. There's only so much you can blame him for without him not even understanding the reality of actual accountability.

The problem with all this shit is that Winnowill/Rayek is completely unresolved and the characters are consistently stuck in a rut so all that happens is that shit around them is effected while they continue unchanged. They don't need to remain unchanged. It's just that it's become a decision made by the writer, and as a result some major other details need to happen and they are happening on the outside since Wendy is so insistent on not sticking to showing their internal changes. It's annoying.

I think with the Venka flip out it depends whether she just showed him the memory of her being hit with the bullet or like "shared" it. You know, the way Cutter shared his despair with Rayek in that fight in HY 9.5. Just shouting at him telepathically is one thing. Forcing painful memories and sensations on him is assault, and considering both his history with violence and his love for Venka, it reads as horrific.

Upon even more re-reading, I really can't tell if we're talking full on Vulcan  mindmeld or not. I really hope not.

And yeah I agree that with everything everyone has said about elves having absolutely no concept or sympathy towards mental illness.

It seems to me that it's unfair to expect Venka to always be controlled and calm and logical and empathic.

At the same time, it's completely unfair to expect Two Edge to take responsibility for the humans using his technology this way. Once they had it, it was out of his hands.

He gave it to them though. He made them powerful weapons to kill her people with.

I mean-- we are criticizing Venka for hurting his feelings by telling him the truth. What did he think they were going to do with guns and gun powder? Have a kumbaya? Dance the Maypole? Two Edge may be nuts but he's not stupid. And he's very dangerous. He organized a war. He got a lot of people killed unnecessarily. And he gave what is essentially super weapon technology to the elves' greatest enemy. That's kind of not okay. And so we are mad that she told him that what he did was bad? Well, it was bad. It's kind of really bad. Really, really, really bad. He's not a little kid-- he's thousands of years old. He needs to understand the ramifications of his actions and the fact that lead to death for other people- and know that's not okay- so that he stops doing this sort of thing. And maybe, just maybe, she was angry at him. And maybe, just maybe, she was completely justified.

wingthing wrote:

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And yeah I agree that with everything everyone has said about elves having absolutely no concept or sympathy towards mental illness.

Since when is Venka all elves. Leetah was very sympathetic toward him. So one character acts one way and suddenly nobody of her species understand mental illness? That doesn't make sense. Besides-- elves had exhibited mental illness. Look at Timmorn, Two Spear, Dramsinger, Acorn, Mekda, Kureel, Strongbow or Rayek.  They were all unbalanced or mad for differing reasons. And they got sympathy. Elves have shown sympathy toward Two Edge in the past. Individuals react differently to things.

I didn't think what Venka did was so bad, until the circumstances were pointed out, now I do feel kind of sorry for Two-Edge. But at the same time, it doesn't seem like he was forced to wait there for Venka. I think it was his choice.

Yeah, it would have been better if Venka had been like "Two-Edge, come out of your hidey hole. I need to talk to you about something..." instead of "WTF man! They shot me and your stupid shield is no good!" But the effect now is that Two-Edge is more rejected and more dangerous, which is maybe what's needed for the plot. And it had to be Venka that was shot and angry because that's the only one who could unhinge Two-Edge that much.

outlier wrote:

Now I'm thinking that we're setting up a conflict between two groups of High Ones. On the one side we'll have Timmain, who, as the new group says, cannot learn how to change. Even after all this time, all she can focus on is getting back to where she came from. She wants the elves to revert back to thier former configuration and leave the planet.

I think the new group are also High Ones who have completely changed to become part of the world. They have no interest in going back, no interest in thier former lives.

This would be extremely interesting.  Dreamtime does suggest that not all the elves will leave.  Pike actually turns into a plant, right?  A dreamberry?  And Tyleet and Shenshen learn how to hide in plain sight in their dreams, we've already seen that start to play out.  

As for the Two-Edge/Venka debate, I actually think both sides are correct to a certain extent.  Venka is  not Two-Edge's therapist, she's not even his lovemate or lifemate.  Lunakat is right--nothing we've seen in her character makes her particularly suitable to beTwo-Edge's sole support system.  She never encouraged him to attach to her.  And she always has the right to choose who she associates with and to protect herself and those she loves.  In a real and literal sense, she really has no duty of care to him--apart from the baseline-level of care one sentient being owes another.    

But that's where I think, unfortunately, Venka falls down in this issue.  I suspect that Two-Edge would meet the legal definition of insanity (at least in my jurisdiction)--he has difficulty distinguishing fantasy from reality and lacks the capacity to distinguish right and wrong action in every instance.   Most of the things he's done that are "wrong" are an externalization of his internal emotional dramas.  He's probably obsessed with Venka because of her long dark hair--he's attracted to her (sexually I presume) but also associates her with a better, alternative version of his own mother.  Yikes...

Venka knows that Two-Edge finds sending disturbing.  He doesn't like it because he associates it with his sadistic mother who subjected him to long-term childhood abuse.  Imagine a human child who was viciously beaten with a belt every day by his mom.  He grows up and gloms onto a girl who sort of looks like his mom.  She's too nice or too naive to push him away even though he's asking for much more than she can reasonably give, more than anyone can give.  Eventually, he gets a gun and lends it to a friend.  The friend shoots his "girlfriend."  She's justifiably enraged, dismayed, disgusted, so she confronts him...and beats him with her belt and tells him his abusive mother is going to come come back and take over the whole world. Surely that's a bridge too far?  

Venka has every right to confront Two-Edge.  She has every right to say "You betrayed me and everyone I love, and I don't want you around me anymore".  She will also never get satisfaction from Two-Edge because he will never understand his actions in an objective manner, he's way too in his own head (which is probably for his own protection.)

I don't know whether sinking the fleet would eliminate all the guns.  It's an idea.  But most gun-smiths work on land, not at sea.  The Djun probably had a lot of workshops tinkering with the gun, figuring out how it worked and how to make more.  Someone with knowledge of the technology would probably still exist.

By futurequest, Abode is ruled by a militaristic matriarchy.  I'm sure Shuna and her followers have some role to play in that development.  The Djun's society is as far from matriarchy as you can get, so something big has to happen among the humans.  Not sure what....

Outlier wrote:

I wonder, will Cutter join with them as a way to resist Timmain? Will this be the "be careful what you wished for" as he has to rebel against Timmain?

I think him joining them is what is going to happen. He just needs to die, if their 'All still, all still' chanting is anything to go by.

Lunakat wrote:

What's the worst that could happen? He kills most them before getting himself killed? Then Winnowil would be freed from his codependent grasp and end up back at the Palace, where Timmain says she (and all the other spirits) can handle her and heal her. Sounds like a win-win.

Isn't there some kind of massive magic field around the palace now that allows the spirits to just fly around as they please? She could just stay away if she wanted?

I'm not sure Venka's actions toward Two-Edge were entirely right or even necessarily effective in the way she wants it to be, but the scene felt real and genuine, so I liked it. It's interesting to see Venka get carried away just a bit by the strength of her emotion, but expressed through a thoroughly logical analysis of the situation, so it doesn't feel out of character.

At its core, I think it's about Venka's frustration and sense of personal betrayal, not for her own pain but that of her people. Because I think she does have feelings of some kind for him. And Two-Edge's reaction -- not "what have I done" but "my maiden hates me!" -- points up why it's doomed, because he might have progressed far enough to love a person (Venka), but having any kind of generalized concern for elves or trolls or anyone as a group is completely beyond him.

Erin1978 wrote:

I'm not sure Venka's actions toward Two-Edge were entirely right or even necessarily effective in the way she wants it to be, but the scene felt real and genuine, so I liked it.

This is the most important thing (which of course I ignored in all my silly blabbing)! It's totally realistic, tragically so. When I'm riled enough to lash out at someone, I'm not speaking from my best and highest self; I'm going to jab that wound and twist the knife because I'm an imperfect person who's emotions have gotten the better of me. The more I think about that scene the more I "like" it. I also think it's a cruel interaction, a poor communication. It makes Venka much more "human" and Two-Edge even more pitiful/pitiable.

I confess I stopped flipping through my digital copy of #14 at the cover of #15. The issue ends with a preview of the Complete Elfquest Vol. 3, and I figured I'd already read whatever it was. As it turns out, they selected....Redlance's dream from Dreamtime! A hint?

ErinC1978 wrote:

At its core, I think it's about Venka's frustration and sense of personal betrayal, not for her own pain but that of her people. Because I think she does have feelings of some kind for him. And Two-Edge's reaction -- not "what have I done" but "my maiden hates me!" -- points up why it's doomed, because he might have progressed far enough to love a person (Venka), but having any kind of generalized concern for elves or trolls or anyone as a group is completely beyond him.

I think this is pretty much hitting the nail on the head. She says "I know he hates this, but he has to understand"-- so she sends to communicate with him in what she thinks is the most direct and effective way-- and he doesn't understand at all. He will never understand. He's not capable. But I'm his lack of understanding, he's very dangerous.

I think I would amend the metaphor about the gun, though. I think a more closer parallel would be that the friend says to him "What can you give me to kill my people with? I'm interested in going on a rampage?" And he responds by finding him a gun, which the guy then uses to shoot his "girlfriend." She's angry, etc-- but instead of beating him with a belt-- she tries to mKe him understand how bad that was by showing him a video of the shooting... Even though she knows his mom used to strap him to chair and make him watch violent videos while she beat him with a belt.

Or something more like that.

I just don't think she Venk doing the equivalent of beating him up. She was using what, to her, is a common and effective form of communication. He just had a problem with it. She knew he had a problem with it, but didn't care at that moment because she was angry and upset and worried. The point wasn't to punish him, but to get him to understand something that he still failed to understand for all the reasons Wisp just mentioned.

Gee- I never though of Pike's dream that way before! That's an interesting point. Tyleet's dream could portend that she too becomes human like Shen Shen. It does make the most sense for the elves who stay to ultimately do something like that. The human body and way of interacting is closest to their own after all.

ErinC1978 wrote:

I'm not sure Venka's actions toward Two-Edge were entirely right or even necessarily effective in the way she wants it to be, but the scene felt real and genuine, so I liked it. It's interesting to see Venka get carried away just a bit by the strength of her emotion, but expressed through a thoroughly logical analysis of the situation, so it doesn't feel out of character.

At its core, I think it's about Venka's frustration and sense of personal betrayal, not for her own pain but that of her people. Because I think she does have feelings of some kind for him. And Two-Edge's reaction -- not "what have I done" but "my maiden hates me!" -- points up why it's doomed, because he might have progressed far enough to love a person (Venka), but having any kind of generalized concern for elves or trolls or anyone as a group is completely beyond him.

Well put!

Wisp wrote:

He's probably obsessed with Venka because of her long dark hair--he's attracted to her (sexually I presume) but also associates her with a better, alternative version of his own mother.  Yikes...

Oh man. I think this is spot on. And not only that, a version of his mother who has the ability to stop his actual mother cold in her tracks. Safety and revenge all rolled up in one pretty little package.

Another thought. Cold the slime elves actually be Two-Spear and his splinter group? I just read the last chapter and there's mention of learning from the high ones and become something new. What if they get killed and their souls turned into the hidden ones? I don't know if this is far fetched.

Will someone just get Rayek off-planet already? Get him past the draining effects of the WoTM and he won't need Winnowill's extra fuel. He'll also be away from the thing that's been nagging at and bugging him for ages and I think we'll see an improvement when he's away from this artificial limitation.

Though I, for one, am sick of this "Rayek's power mad, oh noes!" angle. Not only does it seriously degrade his previously shown learning arc, it doesn't fit. He has wanted to Do Things but hasn't wanted Power For Power's Sake.

Fwiw at this point, I don't think anyone is saying Venka shouldn't have taken Two-Edge to task but that the way she did is not likely to have the results she was hoping for. Though I have to wonder what those could be. Does she think he has a button he can press to destroy all guns everywhere? Or does she hope he'll say "Wait, I have this Kevlar jacket I made last week, you can have it?" Is he supposed to say "I'm sorry I gave them a weapon, here have some of your own?" What is her end game here?

I don't think Venka had an 'endgame', I think she was just (for once) pissed off enough to have her emotions get the better of her... can't really say how it's going to effect the outcome here, what Two Edge will end up doing. I'm actually not really interested (is that horrible? I just don't care.) in Venka. I'm not interested in Two Edge either. There's very little character development here despite whatever outburst just occurred and the supposed high stakes, because the constant so-called 'threat' of humans is basically eclipsing everything. It's supposed to be adding urgency and yet I find it bloody tiresome and downright obstructive to moving things along in any meaningful way.

What I used to care about was Rayek and the way that storyline's been deformed has actually actually got me to stop caring for him. Not in the way of 'oh he sucks, I'm so mad', but more like, This is so carelessly written that I'm just not going to bother even thinking about it anymore. It's gone so far beyond redemption or any kind of interesting progression and has turned Rayek/Winnnowill into cartoonish Villain & Co. establishment. It's very dull. I don't care anymore, because clearly the writer doesn't care about them either. It's like someone got bored with Rayek and Winnowill and just decided to walk away from the commitment to them as 3-dimensional characters, saying, Screw it, we'll just say Rogue's Curse is canon and leave it at that- hmmm, let's play in this other corner of the sandbox instead

I think Venka just was pissed off and wanted Two Edge to stop making this shit and giving it to their enemies. So she was bluntly honest with him. Probably not with the best results-- or we wouldn't have a story.

I too wish the whole thing was better written. It's getting pretty hamfisted. I liked the Prologue, actually. A lot of people were dishing on the Prologue-- but I thought it was pretty good. I also liked the part with Ember getting kidnapped and whatever-- that was a good story arc. Eh-- this just feels like it's lecturing to me at this point. The story isn't telling us-- the dialogue is. Venka is narrating to Two Edge. Cutter is ruminating on his "higher self" which is frankly a little out of character. He's not a great poet, it turns out-- i wouldn't expect Cutter to be-- but I wonder why he's rhyming? Then again, I wondered why Skywise was rhyming at right before Shards happened. The only character that has ever rhymed well, who wasn't purposefully singing a song, was Two Edge. And he rhymed well because his rhymes were mostly just short couplets that were supposed to make him sound crazy-- and they did.

I kind of wish the writing was less expository.

Imho-- Winnowil and Rayek have been cartoonish villains ever since Kings of the Broken Wheel. That's where they kind of fell apart for me. Both of them. I just don't want everybody else to fall apart too.

manga wrote:

Does she think he has a button he can press to destroy all guns everywhere?

I think that's what that scene wants us to think.
I don't see what the point is tho. The humans excel at murdering. They're going to end up making better weapons by themselves. Two-Edge's 'help' wont matter in the end.

I really just hope it's not going to end with Two-Edge dying to fix things, in order to redeem himself.
It's just...no.
On a side note, I'm happy to see Vanka actually has some small range.

That would be a good ending for his character though. He is caught in a no-win situation. He wont go with the elves when they leave. He doesn't fit in with the trolls. What's he going to do? Where is his future? He's not insane anymore, so he can't escape into that. Dying would be a good option for him-- if he can do it well and to a purpose.

Shadowpath wrote:

manga wrote:

Does she think he has a button he can press to destroy all guns everywhere?

I think that's what that scene wants us to think.

I didn't get that impression. It wouldn't make sense.

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I don't see what the point is tho. The humans excel at murdering. They're going to end up making better weapons by themselves. Two-Edge's 'help' wont matter in the end.

Yeah- but he can stop helping them to do it better. I mean- he gave them guns and bulldozers. That kind of made a difference. It's a bit of a game changer.

Shadowpath wrote:

On a side note, I'm happy to see Vanka actually has some small range.

True that. She's more interesting and relatable this way than as Miss Prissy Perfect Zen Calm all the time!

Lunakat wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

manga wrote:

Does she think he has a button he can press to destroy all guns everywhere?

I think that's what that scene wants us to think.

I didn't get that impression. It wouldn't make sense.

In EQ? Nope, it wouldn't make sense and I personally don't see it happening.

Quote :

I don't see what the point is tho. The humans excel at murdering. They're going to end up making better weapons by themselves. Two-Edge's 'help' wont matter in the end.

Lunakat wrote:

Yeah- but he can stop helping them to do it better.

I'd hope so.