Final Quest #14

manga wrote:

Zadzi, Namuhna was wondering how Shuna managed to ONLY have one baby, something I have also wondered. Did she turn to Leetah for help in that? Though there is such a thing as secondary infertility and other natural factors. Though birth control may be common knowledge in Djunsland, if it were it would probably have been plant based. (Like the herb the Greeks of our world used to use until they harvested it into extinction.) Thus, unless she asked Skywise to pick her up some from Djunsland and Redlance to grow her a stable crop, I think it's unlikely she had access to it back in the original Holt, which is on a different continent.

I dunno, I never got the impression Shuna was supposed to have to even wanted more than one kid. Being a missionary and all, it's a dangerous lifestyle as we've seen, last thing she probably wanted to do is have more kids... But overall, I don't think it was anything more than it being written that way though. Like I don't think Wendy intended any kind of secret infertility or anything of the sort up her sleeve. I mean, Shuna's mother only had her, there were no other siblings we know of. Who knows, maybe it's hereditary.

This may be a case of us overthinking a few points.

Ahmmm... the way I got it was simply:

As Shuna had only one child it is logical to assume that Djunslanders know about (most likely by herbs). Otherwise she would have lived like nun and monk with her husband.

About Shuna being a single child - we don't know. Her mother looked quite old - at the end of fertility at the time she was introduced. Her husband was violent, life was hard. There could easily be other children. Died in the womb, at young age, by sickness, accident or war, being grown up and married or in the army ... with Shuna as the only surviving one or the beloved nestling.

Namuhna wrote:

Ever since Timmain mysteriously knew that Skywise had lost his wolf-friend and that weird bonding with Cutter all those years, it all comes together in retrospect. Even Cutters weird draw towards finding other elves, the parallels with him and Rayek vs Timmain and Haken/Winnowill, why on earth Cutter had the power to resist Winnowill, even why Strongbow knew Cutter would change them forever after the challenge

Ah, but there's where I get hung up on the "ingenious tapestry" approach to FQ--I think the Tam=Timmain thing is the mother of all retcons. I don't think Wendy or Richard had the faintest notion that Timmain would share a soul with Tam at any time in the original quest. They've said themselves that they hashed out FQ in the 90s. And am I hallucinating, or did they actually say in the podcast interview that the soul-sharing concept emerged at that time? I think they did. It's just "convenient" that they've been able to shoe-horn the idea into the existing story. They've had to tweak some details here and there to make it fit (ie. Timmain now lived in the troll pit for decades when it was abundantly clear in the OQ that she'd only been there a few weeks/months at most.)

It's their prerogative to change their minds about the story, it's just not the most elegant approach. I'm willing to accept it because at least it's injected an element of surprise.

Also, I know a lot of people love the high ones story from....New Blood(?) about Timmain and her group of firstcomers (Gibra, Haken, et al.) At best, I take that story as an allegory or a myth. Wendy and Richard were pretty hands-off at that time, and I don't think they really cared what people did with their universe (case in point, Barry Blair and his abomination of a series.) I didn't mind that story, but I'm not convinced there was a "real" Haken. I think of it more as an abstraction of Timmain's history.

I agree. I think that was a terrible story. I think it was incredibly lazy the way the characters just mirrored some of the main characters from the original quest.  I think that the characterizations were simplistic and the story was overly simplistic, with the kind of good evil depictions that Wendy Pini never resorted to in writing the original storyline.  But, I think Wendy's characters have gotten flatter and flatter as the story progresses.  I'm not a fan of kings of the broken wheel. I think that all of the complexity that had built up around the characters got simplified at that point and everyone became basically the equivalent of a cardboard cutout of what they used to be. I also think the storyline became less thoughtful and the moments in it less subtle; it really just punched you in the face with the plot and the message.  Wendy once gave an interview or made a statement or something that this was about the time she conceived of the plot line for final quest, so I'm sure she didn't have that in mind when she wrote the original story arc.  It was definitely a ret con, but it happened before kings of the broken wheel, and probably before siege at BlueMountain. So I'm sure when she wrote that story arc, she had this ending in mind.

Embala wrote:

Ahmmm... the way I got it was simply:

As Shuna had only one child it is logical to assume that Djunslanders know about (most likely by herbs). Otherwise she would have lived like nun and monk with her husband.

About Shuna being a single child - we don't know. Her mother looked quite old - at the end of fertility at the time she was introduced. Her husband was violent, life was hard. There could easily be other children. Died in the womb, at young age, by sickness, accident or war, being grown up and married or in the army ... with Shuna as the only surviving one or the beloved nestling.

Yeah exactly, it's very odd that Shuna hadn't gotten pregnant more than once, being in probably perfect health and all, during two marriages.

And oh absolutely is the Tammain a retcon! I don't think they figured out exactly what was going on until Timmain knew that Starjumper had died, but I also think they might've had some other idea about what was goin on with Cutter, some kinda vague explanation why he could do the things he can do. Winnowill had not lost her best secret weapon when the mortality of the wolf-blood was revealed after all. Maybe that unknowing is why the balance was better back then? They were so unsure of the basic rules of souls and blood that they had to weigh up with current happenings, but in Final Quest they're really explaining and revealing the actual nature of life and death.

Zadzi wrote:

I dunno, I never got the impression Shuna was supposed to have to even wanted more than one kid. Being a missionary and all, it's a dangerous lifestyle as we've seen, last thing she probably wanted to do is have more kids... But overall, I don't think it was anything more than it being written that way though. Like I don't think Wendy intended any kind of secret infertility or anything of the sort up her sleeve. I mean, Shuna's mother only had her, there were no other siblings we know of. Who knows, maybe it's hereditary.

But assuming Shuna could even THINK of it in terms of "how many children do I want" is a very 21-st century attitude. It implies a stable understanding and access to birth control that I don't think the humans of Abode have. They certainly don't have the tech. If it's an herb, it may not be on the right continent for her. Though Bee speaks of other societies where the women have more status, so if it did exist,  I'd be inclined to think it was there, though not with the first group Shuna met.

Simply, babies are a fact of life. It's what sex DOES. It's not the only thing sex does but sex is the only thing that makes babies. Where there is sex, there are babies. Even for the elves, though some of them have additional conditions to be met. So for Shuna not to have any others - at this time, in this place - does raise interesting questions.[/quote]

They said they came up with the basic plot of Final Quest (though not the script) right around the time of writing Kings of the Broken Wheel-- but well after Final Quest.

Yeah-- that's weird with Shuna. I like to think that she (or her husband) is just not very fertile. We can speculate-- but there's not going to be an answer most likely-- because it's such a minor story point. If she had a bunch of kids, she couldn't travel around and be the character she is. That's why I think she has only one kid. It's easier on the story. But we can use our imaginations to justify it any way we prefer. Sort of like the Ember thing. Was she poisoned or does she just not like soup? Who knows? Who will ever know!

A woman can look perfectly healthy, but that's no guarantee of fertility. I'm an only child because my mom did not have another successful pregnancy for whatever reason. For all we know, Shuna had a string of miscarriages under her belt before her husband died. Or maybe Bee had weak sperm. Or perhaps she only wanted one child and she asked Leetah to block her fertility after her son was born. In any event, I agree with Lunakat. It's unlikely to be a major plot point.

I can't remember but didn't Shuna actually talk about children in a very choicey way at one point? must reread...

Oh, hey, here's a thought!
The trolls and old Maggoty've got ALOT of knowledge about herbs and whatnot, I mean way beyond what humans know now in OUR world, and she would know how to prevent babies in both continents, maybe in all races too? Maybe they showed abit of lore to the Djunslanders? And since they know both continents, it translates fairly well anyway. That's just speculation tho, maybe not relevant...

There's never been a human character in EQ with more than 2 kids at the most. I just don't think it's ever been a relevant part of the story. Which is also hilarious, considering the elves constantly talk about humans breeding like fleas.

But if Ember was poisoned, then it suddenly does become relveant then, eh? Like when suddenly Cutters need to find other elves becomes relevant because Tammain?

Ah, well nevermind. I'm definitively placing my bets on concentrated contraceptions with Ember, but as many of you've said we probably wont have this confimed or disproven until Ember decides to get pregnant. Which I'm sorta hoping will be a very long time from now tbh. I'm very happy about elves who don't want to become parents.

Zadzi wrote:

There's never been a human character in EQ with more than 2 kids at the most. I just don't think it's ever been a relevant part of the story. Which is also hilarious, considering the elves constantly talk about humans breeding like fleas.

Not QUITE true. Nonna had three, though she had not borne them herself.

^ I dunno... looks like Shukopek and his wife have been pretty busy!

Arguably, they have Shenshen lol

If they weren't very fertile, Shen Shen would have nothing to do and more story time would have had to be devoted to watching her wander from tribe to tribe to deliver babies. She doesn't need to be human to hang with Shukopeck and his family though.

I miss Shenshen. I wish they'd bring her back to the story, feels like they just kinda dumped her since we've not seen her at all.

There are so many reasons why a woman might not have that many babies, or none at all. Seriously guys, I'm pretty sure you all have heard from women, who just won't get pregnant, or only conceive after so many tries.

Here, even "back then" people used birth control:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

Welcome

Edit: I'm sorry, that came a bit more rude than intended. But things like famine, a stressful life etc. influences conception. So Shuna is nothing out of the ordinary

just to interject....what if Shuna and Bee just didn't have much opportunity for lots of sex? i mean they had Shukopek to raise, which of course a kid takes a lot of time and energy...then there was traveling around, meeting new tribes and learning abou them and trying to teach them about good spirits.

i mean i dunno about you, but if i was gonna stay a brief period in a place, i'd be kinda..respect and not do the boinky boink. then there's so much walking you have to do during the day, you're probably pretty weary by the end of the day. and with a woman being fertile at one point in the month, it's pretty easy to miss that window right?

plus with all that traveling, it really wouldn't have been good for shuna bearing a baby...a little exercise is good of course, but this would go WAY beyond a little..and possibly confronting hostile tribes of humans with a big belly? yeah not a very good idea...

so...just my opinion!^^ trying to be logical.

I remember back in Discovery Shuna said it wasn't "in her" to be a mother and Bee would have to understand that. I was quite excited for a childfree couple, so imagine my surprise when FQ Special opened with Shuna giving birth!

Perhaps Shukopek was their.... okay this sounds horrible, but their "compromise" baby? It sounded like Bee really wanted a son. So maybe Shuna agreed they'd have one kid, and then focus on the "quest". Or maybe he was the accident that turned out to be a happy one and Shuna said "let's not push our luck." Yeah, there are certainly oodles of ways (some more reliable than others) they could have been intentionally limiting fertility.

If I was Shuna and sure I didn't want any more kids, I'd hit up Mother Leetah for a free tubal ligation. A *magic* tubal ligation!! Yay magic!

Maybe. I like to think maybe Shukopek was their accident. Maybe Leetah fixed it after that. Or maybe Shen Shen taught her something. I figure that scene and the character it birthed were entirely for Shen Shen's benefit.

I always thought it was weird even back from the earliest days of EQ that Shenshen was a midwife. It just never made any sense to me.

i think it does. She hasn't got her sister's power-- but she has the inclination and instinct.

maaaaybe if Shenshen ever had any kids, they'd be healers! it could be like Kahvi...Shenny possibly has latent healers powers. makes me wonder though, who in either side of the family had healing powers before Leetah? or was it just the combination of genetics randomly led to healing abilities?