Final Quest #16 cover revealed (spoilers)

Yeah, but-- in the first place. You know-- when they were all like "I can see her dark spirit infection f the shards" and whatnot.

I like the idea of a death ray shooting powerhouse.

This whole palace used only for love thing is nonsense, if it's an actual ongoing plot point. I remember at some point in Rogue's Curse (I think), Winnowill was trying to get into the palace but couldn't because it was made of love and she had too much hate or something. Which is odd, when you think about it, because it seems awfully exclusive and conditional. At some point before all that nonsense, the palace was regarded as a neutral entity for neither good nor evil, its energy simply was as it was, taking on whichever direction it was steered, and that's why it was dangerous to get Winnowill in there.
So I'm not sure if the reason for not using the palace is love..but then what else would it be?
Maybe the Palace disappears or something and Timmain takes it elsewhere because of her damn lesson of pain, which keeps her emotionally detached from potentially disastrous situations.

Also, isn't it just kind of more appropriate to Care Bears?

Lunakat wrote:

Also, isn't it just kind of more appropriate to Care Bears?

The palace-dwellers are basically Care Bears in skimpy outfits

The cover is pretty ugly. I don't like Rayeks stance and the colors, only Ekuar and Two Edge are nice to look at.


It would be very cool if the being that Cutter is going to seek out is a troll.


Zadzi that would mean none of the palace dwellers ever has a negative mood? They are always happy and even tempered? Or do I misunderstand the whole palace-love thing? It does sound like Carebears!

It would be cool if that being is someone we have never met or heard of yet, who is not directly related to any of the main characters.

My theory on why the Palace can't be used as a weapon: because that's not the path that would get them off the WotM.

At one point, Rayek had a Palace shard tied to a staff he used as a walking stick. Winnowill tried to possess the shard, but something made her stop short, and turned her away. The last panel of that scene (issue?) had her hugging herself and staring into the shard almost wistfully.

And yeah, I don't think the Palace was ever meant to be a weapon. It was for community and exploration. What Winnowill shattered, Timmain's love helped restore (that is, if I'm remembering correctly). So maybe there's a point to the preview summary.

Lunakat wrote:

It would be cool if that being is someone we have never met or heard of yet, who is not directly related to any of the main characters.

*Turns out to be Two-Spear/Timmorn/Whoever opened the door to the palace when it crashed*

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It would be cool if that being is someone we have never met or heard of yet, who is not directly related to any of the main characters.

*Turns out to be Two-Spear/Timmorn/Whoever opened the door to the palace when it crashed*

Lunakat wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It would be cool if that being is someone we have never met or heard of yet, who is not directly related to any of the main characters.

*Turns out to be Two-Spear/Timmorn/Whoever opened the door to the palace when it crashed*

Cheer up!
If it's an immortal being it's likely going to get killed off quickly! =D

With the exception of Ruffel (?) and Krim, how many immortals died in FiQu? Granted, two more dead immortals then Wolfriders, but two still isn't a high number.

A lot of people seem to complain, that Wendy is fond of killing immortal elves, but I'd argue she's killing disposable elves. Woodlock and Rainsing were 'disposable elves', which is why they were the only Wolfriders to die in 10.000 years (short and sharp lives, sure)

Exactly. Like One Eye.

Shadowpath wrote:

Has Ekuar always been missing the tip of his ear(s)? O_o

I always figured it was one of the many appendages he lost during his imprisonment-torture by the trolls. Sometimes the tip of his right ear has been missing, while other times it hasn't. That's exactly the sort of telling detail Wendy used to be so good at...  

Lunakat wrote:

If it turns out the Palace can only used for love... Then why has Rayek been housing Winnowill this whole time?

Also, if she's so evil that she can't bear its influence, how was she able to be kept in it while mentally checked out-- then not just recover, but also run off with it? And what about that time it "granted" Skywise's wish to get his wolfblood back? Is it loving, indifferent (as it's been called in the past), both, neither? Yeesh. Damn thing's taking on Macguffin qualities of X-Men proportions... almost as bad as Timmain.

Redhead Ember wrote:

How could they use it? Repeatedly land it on top of the human war-men, crushing them?

Gives a new meaning to the term "bouncy castle"  

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Nooo, the stompy-stomp pose of Rayek is cute, even his facial expression, he looks like an angry teenager

Indeed. I also thought it is kinda cute. But then, the poor thing, Winnie is at it again. I know it isn't easy but I wish he would just dump her*. He definitely needs a better choice in terms of partners (love/lifemates).

*Never understood this "I can't leave her, she needs to love me back". I mean, yes, he needs some love - but why her? The whole line seemed a bit forced to me, so the story doesn't end that quickly.

What's the point of feeling sorry for Rayek, though, now that we know he's just doing it to himself-- and her? It was one thing when he was harboring Winnowil as a self sacrifice. But at this point-- what is he doing? Why not just let her go?

You can feel sorry for an alcoholic.  I guess we can see Winnie as some kind of drug for Rayek.  

Psychologically, maybe it's something like if he can earn her love - Winnowill, who seems to be the only other elf who even sort of thinks the way he does - he will finally feel validated.  "Why else would I call you Lord?" she asked.  "We are ALIKE!"

Then again, assuming her "soul brother" stuff is more than just her messing with his head, it may be beyond him to "just let go."  He may be as incapable of leaving her as Cutter was unable to leave Skywise in Blue Mountain.

Maybe something more effected Rayek when those two had nookie in the Egg room way back when?

We all know what a mental manipulator Winnowill has always been. Maybe she ensnared Rayek's psyche more than we know or understood. After all, her "black sending" is pretty powerful.... maybe she has some sense of mental control over him that even Rayek isn't aware of?

Then again, maybe it's Recognition, just without the soul names. Seeing his reaction when Winnowill died was a bit startling to me. I thought his obsession with her was simply that. An obsession controlled by mutual egos between the two. But when seeing his reaction to her initial death, it made me think of how Clearbrook reacted when she lost One Eye. Not the actual "shock", and later her "outburst" It was how deeply the loss struck her. To me, Rayek appeared to feel just as distraught and at such loss in that moment.

Maybe he felt, or saw, the good in her from long, long ago and clings to the hope that he can eventually help her to find that part of her again.... all in all, whatever the warped reason, I have to say I believe he loves her

Kindredsoul wrote:

Maybe he felt, or saw, the good in her from long, long ago and clings to the hope that he can eventually help her to find that part of her again.... all in all, whatever the warped reason, I have to say I believe he loves her

That's always been my assumption. I don't know about it in the wake of that (inexplicably laughed-off) scene where he denies her freedom and healing because he knows she'll love him some day, but it's certainly my preferred take.

Maybe all the elves have realized that scene made no sense and butchered his character, and they are all erasing it from their personal headcanons.

... just like I am.

Rayek's main problem isn't Rayek's fault - Rayek's problem is Wendy.
He's been written as an easy out character to dispose a lot of contempt on to. It's just plain laziness. She doesn't want to bother with him anymore, except to just find ways to call him unenlightened on the page. He doesn't 'fit' the new age script - which is *exactly* why he's an extremely important character actually...he's a lot more 'real' than a lot of the other ones, and he can keep things grounded in his own weird way.
Rayek has always been cocky, arrogant, jealous, but also protective, fiercely loyal, and intelligent. The latter traits are diluted according to the author's whims and it's sort of sad because he's got depth which will never be explored except through fan fic, which thankfully can have real appreciation for him (thank you Wingthing and also Kathleen).
He had redeemed himself way back when he took in Winnowill's spirit as sacrifice for the good of the palace and she whole. Now the whole thing is...I guess it's what you call retconning? Have I used that term properly? Because i do feel kind of conned at the treatment of this character.

In Dutch we have the word "karaktermoord" for this. Murder of character.

Lunakat wrote:

But at this point-- what is he doing? Why not just let her go?

That is what struck me a bit. A bit much, even.
But then, maybe it is "lazy storywriting" so we can keep Winnie and her mischief around some longer. Or, as manga wrote, he's still kind of addicted to her after all these years, somehow in a strange way. Stockholm syndrome maybe.
In the end it might mean separation again, and I really pity him for his unlucky partnerships he had. The problem is, he actually needs a certain level of ... "common mindship" that is proabably rare to find. He gives a lot of energy but probably he also needs a good charger for his own batteries from time to time, and that probably leads to the impression of "he lays claim". Besides that, his fear of loss and separation from loved ones. Thus, maybe his interest in Winnowill, if she just wasn't exactly the way she is, but there is hope... and now he was to lose again someone of equal mind level (or at least he thinks she could be).
But then, again, could be "lazy storywriting".

Kindredsoul wrote:

some sense of mental control over him

I don't know. I guess something like that should have shown earlier. And she would probably have used this power already - to escape.

Quote :

Maybe something more effected Rayek when those two had nookie in the Egg room way back when?

That might be one thing. In my eyes Rayek craves for someone "on par" with his level of mind; thus he feels attracted to certain women - sadly there are few of these types in EQ and one was ripped away by recognition, the other one was more a ... temporary fix; he knew quite fast that they had to many differences, and the last one... ah, damn bad choice.[*] Still, Winnie looks like a chance to him, if she just was ... unevil.

Besides all that, yes, she said something about "fully gratifying the senses" and stuff, so yes, she's probably good at that.
(see http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=SABM/SABM07&p=13 )

Quote :

Recognition

But then is was very unilateral. It didn't seem to me like Winnie ever really felt something for him, besides being a toy or just saw him as a useful tool - as long as he was in her hands!

But his hope, yes. I think he desparately clining to his idea of healing her. He brought Leetah already ages ago to her for a healing attempt. He can be a bit stubborn, and I guess he still thinks there is a chance to save her. (And maybe he's right.)

Zadzi wrote:

Rayek's main problem isn't Rayek's fault - Rayek's problem is Wendy.

I hope not, I hope not. Either W or R, whoever is more responsible for the story.
Well, I just flew with my eyes over "The art of the story" (arrived a short time ago) and there was also a chapter about HY 9.5 and I think that was okay. Rayek didn't get away too bad.

Elwing wrote:

karaktermoord

Good word. Sounds like the German "Charaktermord". (Though I thought Belgians were speaking something similar to the language of the Netherlands (maybe with more French influence); but is it the same Dutch as they speak in the Netherlands?)
And somehow this

Zadzi wrote:

find ways to call him unenlightened on the page

would be a karaktermoord.

[*] just found an interesting reference in EQ Vol 2
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=EQ2/EQ220&p=19

For some reason, when reading this discussion a line from the animated move Robots came to mind: "When you pick a lost cause, you really commit!" Seems to describe Rayek's relationship with Winnie pretty well.

My feeling is that Rayek is the kind of person that forms very few relationships, and like jarf pointed out, they have to be with people he really admires or has a true meeting of the minds with. But once he does form that relationship, it's very deep and intense.

I also think that he tends to set goals for himself and get a little obsessive about getting them accomplished. Like with Leetah. I think that he admired her and felt she was the only person worthy of loving, but I'm not sure he really did love her. I think it's more that he set the goal for himself that she would be his lifemate and it was always his failing that she wasn't.

Then, I think his goal shifted to getting the Go-backs to reclaim the Palace, then to restore the Palace, both of which happened, but not just of his doing.

So, I think he does admire what Winnowill could be, and must have felt a very strong connection to her, but I think she's also his project, and maybe he's just not willing to give up yet. Maybe this is something he feels that he can accomplish, and he's the only one who can, and Winnie will be a great asset once he succeeds. Maybe if he can do this he'll feel redemption for his other perceived failures.

It's kind of funny, I think I feel backwards from a lot of people here. Reading the original quest, I always felt he was kind of the cartoonish villian that I didn't have any feeling for (of course, I was also like 10 years old then, so my way of seeing was simpler then, too), but since then I think he has become a much more complex character, possibly my favorite.