Final Quest #17

Definitely would be awesome, all that lesson of pain babble was an unfortunate side-effect of some bad troll / elf meat over the years.

ick, I'm very fond of unexpected things and love off the wall theories and all but I really wouldn't like it if Timmorn was still alive. I'm kinda reminded of the feeling I got when I read Kahvis backstory, it just feels wrong and sort of stuck to old stories that were kind of finished at the cost of potential new ones if that makes sense?

I very very faintly remember on the old forum that Richard P asked very genuinly why people didn't like that Kahvis is twoSpears daughter-arch tho, so I'm wondering if they really don't understand what's wrong with that kind of writing. I seriously hope Timmorn is dead, but i wouldn't be completely surprised if he wasn't. Disappointed, but not surpised.

It would explain some things-- including Cutter's behaviour. But only if she ate the brains.

namuhna wrote:

ick, I'm very fond of unexpected things and love off the wall theories and all but I really wouldn't like it if Timmorn was still alive. I'm kinda reminded of the feeling I got when I read Kahvis backstory, it just feels wrong and sort of stuck to old stories that were kind of finished at the cost of potential new ones if that makes sense?

That totally makes sense. You said that better than the rest of us.

Quote :

I very very faintly remember on the old forum that Richard P asked very genuinly why people didn't like that Kahvis is twoSpears daughter-arch tho, so I'm wondering if they really don't understand what's wrong with that kind of writing. I seriously hope Timmorn is dead, but i wouldn't be completely surprised if he wasn't. Disappointed, but not surpised.

You know... I actually think they don't. I get the impression, just based on their comments, that the Pinis wrote the originally quest with a good amount of intuition feeling them. I feel like they are trying to do the same thing with Final Quest-- but the problem is that they are consciously trying to hit all these "hero's journey" points, rather than letting them flow naturally from the course of the story. It makes it feel a little forced-- and I think that's what everyone is picking up on.

That's exactly it, Lunakat, and that's been what I'm harping about. It feels manufactured now that they're down to the wire. The Jungian/Campbellian (is that a word? It is now!) arc was organic before, it flowed. I mean, it was never completely subtle since we're ultimately talking about a comic book here! - yet it was still subtle considering the medium.
Now, since they're on a deadline, the elemental basics are erected in a sometimes viagra style 'inspiration', if I may be so crude. I get it, I totally get this urge to do that - you need to wrap that shit up tight and get it taken care of on your terms and you may as well make the proverbial call of the archetypal muse be heard by all. But I must admit that it often takes me right out of my own element when I read it, because I literally see those cogs turning to make things happen. I don't want to see that. I want magic. I know it's naive, but it's what I want.

Yeah it's like... The descent into the cave isn't supposed to be literal. I mean it can be, but it is actually a metaphor for an aspect of a story arc that is traditionally  common. I feel as if they are using Joseph Campbell as a blue print. Cutter literally meets his higher self. Oh so literally. He literally falls into the abyss. There he literally confronts mortality (nearly dying literally). He will literally descend into a cave and then come back to fight a dragon (the djunsmen) and literally redeem his people with a gift. And he will literally live on.

He has a literal shadow self (Rayek-- the literally dark opposite to Cutter with a literal shade inside him).

Joseph Cambell was describing general archetypes and patterns that stories tend to follow. But the Hero's journey, as manifested in Final Quest, seems to be a used as a roadmap for the plot. Is so overt the sense of a deeper meaning and insight that permeates the original quest is lost. It ends up surface feeling.

Boy do I feel like a negative Nancy-- but that's my honest take

Edit

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Ever wondered why the trolls rebelled against the High Ones in the first place? They weren't there out of humanitarian reasons ("saving those poor creatures"), but as cattle. The main function of the preservers isn't to 'lock time away' but to preserve food. It is very easy to enter a deep state of concentration or meditation without the help of a preserver but it is impossible to keep food from spoiling otherwise.

Thanks for that! And now I have the vision of ill-informed elves trying to meditate inside the palace refrigirators

Agree with what you said, Lunakat and Zadzi! Completely understand the need of the Piny to finish what they started, but you can't force a story into being just by wanting it to

It seems to me like Elfquest has gone from being a story to an allegory. The characters don't seem anymore like real people who are living through real events, instead both characters and plot events are philosophical and moral symbols, serving the overall "message". There were always allegorical qualities to Elfquest, but now it has taken over.

Davrille wrote:

"SOYLENT GREEN IS TROLLS!

They already are green, aren't they?


Fun Fact: Did you know, there actually is a company trying to sell a food replacement called SoyLent? Recently their business cooled off, I wonder why

sun girl wrote:

It seems to me like Elfquest has gone from being a story to an allegory. The characters don't seem anymore like real people who are living through real events, instead both characters and plot events are philosophical and moral symbols, serving the overall "message". There were always allegorical qualities to Elfquest, but now it has taken over.

Yes- I think that's it.

Lunakat wrote:

Yeah it's like... The descent into the cave isn't supposed to be literal..... I feel as if they are using Joseph Campbell as a blue print. Cutter literally meets his higher self. Oh so literally...

He has a literal shadow self (Rayek-- the literally dark opposite to Cutter with a literal shade inside him)... But the Hero's journey, as manifested in Final Quest, seems to be a used as a roadmap for the plot. Is so overt the sense of a deeper meaning and insight that permeates the original quest is lost.

So I had to make this...

wingthing, the truth hurts because it hurts to laugh this much.
Yeah....

This issue...Meh. It's like there is no story at this point. It's just people going places for no apparent reason, and then going to other places...
I wonder if Tammain is going to kill Skywise. At this point, anything might happen and nothing seems to matter.

Is it me, or are Dart and Mender sickeningly sweet together? I don't seem to recall any other couple in Elfquest being that saccharine. Now I'm beginning to consider Mender/Trinket as a superior pairing.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Fun Fact: Did you know, there actually is a company trying to sell a food replacement called SoyLent? Recently their business cooled off, I wonder why

Catholic vegans?

Well, I think this is it for me. I read all the previous issues, even downloaded them early using the darkhorse app when I wasn't enjoying them very much. This time...forgot the new issue was even coming out. I've been reading all the great discussion, but I just can't bring myself to download #17. Maybe I've finally reached the threshold of my fan loyalty.

I'll just say, I agree 100% about what's been said about the hero's journey/Campbellian element of FQ. The Pinis are absolutely hamstrung by it. The hero's journey is not intended as a story outline or a blueprint. When creators try to use it in that way, they start peddling in allegories, self-conscious mythology. That's not unprecedented. It happened big time with the Star Wars prequels. Intuitive storytellers naturally tap the well of myth and tropes in a fresh, authentic, unstudied way. But when you start to think of yourself less as a storyteller than a "myth-maker" or "truth-speaker" the story can start to feel manufactured and forced. That's what I've seen in FQ, and it's what I've heard in Wendy and Richard's discussion of their intentions. It's a shame, IMO.

Lunakat wrote:

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Fun Fact: Did you know, there actually is a company trying to sell a food replacement called SoyLent? Recently their business cooled off, I wonder why

Catholic vegans?

Their products seemed to make lots of people ill.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/13/soylent-bars-people-sick-meal-replacement
But, back to topic...

wingthing wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

Yeah it's like... The descent into the cave isn't supposed to be literal..... I feel as if they are using Joseph Campbell as a blue print. Cutter literally meets his higher self. Oh so literally...

He has a literal shadow self (Rayek-- the literally dark opposite to Cutter with a literal shade inside him)... But the Hero's journey, as manifested in Final Quest, seems to be a used as a roadmap for the plot. Is so overt the sense of a deeper meaning and insight that permeates the original quest is lost.

So I had to make this...

Who says they were trying to be subtle? You may personally have preferred being subtle, but if it wasn't what they were aiming for you can't say they're doing it wrong.
In that vein; who says the descent into the cave can't be literal? It might not normally be that, but who says it can't?

Me? I'll continue enjoying this great story and amazing character development.

Of course it can be-- the story can be anything they want. They're the authors. They can have Mickey Mouse come riding in on six white unicorns if they want. But the best term (I think) to describe the effect, so far, of telling the story this way was used by wisp: self conscious.

Whether you think that's good or bad or whatever is a matter of opinion.

No, they can't. Have Mickey Mouse come riding in on six white unicorns that is, coz it wouldn't make sense within the story. Also, legal reasons; I'm pretty sure Disney has the rights to Mickey Mouse. The stuff that is happening otoh makes perfect sense.

Quote :

who says the descent into the cave can't be literal? It might not normally be that, but who says it can't?

Well of course it can. In much the same vein as people who enjoy painting by numbers - there are plenty of people who enjoy it, but it would never be considered great art. Or even just art.

Painting by numbers isn't creating something yourself. There is no conscious-ness involved; you just follow the numbers.
Having the descent into the cave be literal is the artist making a conscious choice of having it so, just like naming of characters and stuff like that.

But it's still closely following a template someone else has laid out.