Final Quest #17

I'm just saying "can" isn't really the point.

The art is still too good to even reference "paint by numbers"-- come on!

I'm not saying it's literally painting by numbers, but that the plot loses any sense of originality by what they are doing. Its not the art I'm commenting on.

Yeah, but I don't think th story qualifies either-- I mean, they created this entire world. It's been a pretty good ride up until now. It's over the top to say they're "filling in the blanks"-- but I don't think it's over the top to say they are self consciously following a "Hero's journey" outline in a fairly literal way.

Stargazer wrote:

But it's still closely following a template someone else has laid out.

By that logic, no works inspired by other works would be considered art. No reinterpretations of myths, or Shakespeare's plays, or even real life events (e.g. Hamilton)

No fanfiction or fan art.

I know this is a long dead horse I'm beating but... I don't get the coloring. Look at Leetah, she pops way more than Cutter. It seems like they went for a warm light/cold shadows, but there is no mid tone, an it is just on Leetah's skin. Not her clothes or on the rest. It very cluttered. The others are not shaded similarly, and Cutter seems to have three lights on him, and I just don't get it.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Who says they were trying to be subtle? You may personally have preferred being subtle, but if it wasn't what they were aiming for you can't say they're doing it wrong.
In that vein; who says the descent into the cave can't be literal? It might not normally be that, but who says it can't?

Me? I'll continue enjoying this great story and amazing character development.

Yeah, okay, if it's the authors' intention to be blatantly obvious and literal, then that's their right. And it's the right of the reader, if they think that that's actually not great storytelling, to say so.

But isn't the point of this whole debate that you're supposedly not meant to follow those steps literally, but here someone is going against the conventions and doing just that.
Bit like - to return to the paint by numbers example - if someone took a paint by numbers template and decided not to simply go 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and so on. You're technically not supposed to do that, yet you can make the choice to do so.

Besides; wasn't Cutter's descent into the cave the whole bit with him losing his mind and ending up with the Rootless Ones? No caves were involved with any of that. Now, however, he's out of that "cave", only to going into a into a real-life cave. (Well, real-life on Abode.)

That specific set of panels which started this debate were being very direct, even blunt, but that doesn't mean it's all like that. So we're back at the beginning; you can't say that the story is being told in a "wrong" manner because one specific set of panels is being blunt. For that specific set of panels it made sense to be direct, other panels are more subtle, because that's what makes sense there.

So you're saying that every narrative choice that the Pinis make is the right and perfect one, and we're only not enjoying the story because we fail to see how what we think are flaws are actually evidence of their masterly literary technique or something. That's hilarious.

I'm saying that you can't say they're wrong for being direct in that particular scene, when it makes perfect sense story-telling-wise.
I'm saying that you can't say it's the wrong way to be subtle, when being subtle probably wasn't what was intended. That would be if I decided to bake a strudel, and you told me that's not how to make pie.
I'm saying that maybe instead of focusing on some slight storytelling "flaws" simply sit down and enjoy the story, without thinking about what you're supposed to do when you tell a story.

But I can't enjoy the story. Not at all. That's the fundamental problem. I haven't been enjoying the story since Discovery. The storytelling flaws are not slight to me, they are like gaping wounds. This is supposed to be Elfquest, and it feels nothing like the Elfquest that I knew. It feels nothing like if you told me you were serving strudel and I got pie - much worse, at least that's still fruit and pastry. This is as if you told me you were serving strudel and I got a plate of toasted grubs. It's like seeing a loved one resurrect as a zombie. It gives me real feelings of revulsion. Sorry to get so hyperbolic, but maybe you don't understand how deeply disappointing FQ is to some EQ fans.

They are following a template as you say, Stargazer. Unfortunately the template they've chosen was never intended for that purpose. The Hero's Journey is a hermeneutic device, an abstraction, a catalog. Allowing an interpretive tool to dictate a primary source is just...backwards.

It's hard to come up with a good analogy, but I suppose it would be like if an author in search of a story went to tvtropes.com and said, let's see what the most commonly used tropes are on here, and I'll just put them in some sort of order and that will be the outline for my book. I suppose there's a chance the author could come up with a compelling story in that way if they deploy the tropes in really surprising and creative ways, and I would say that some elements of FQ have (at minimum) been surprising.

But I suspect there would be "forcedness" to any story concocted in that way because it did not spring initially from some germ of an idea that originated within the author. It did not grow organically from that seed. It's less like a wildflower, more like a topiary or espaliered tree which has been urged and pruned into a very specific shape, which can be beautiful and functional, but which could never be mistaken for a wild plant.

What I'm trying to say is that, for me, lack of subtlety isn't the cardinal sin here. I'm not sure subtle is in the top ten of adjectives I would use to describe any EQ. But I did get a feeling from the pre-FQ stuff that this whole universe sprang organically from a vision in Wendy's head, probably one of an elf, equal parts ethereal and feral, riding through the night woods on the back of a wolf. That's fresh, and the story that grew from that germ felt fresh too. And sometime after the fact (per Wendy and Richard) someone came up to them and said, "this story has incredible resonance with readers and that's partly because you (unwittingly) represented the Hero's Journey in a beautiful new way." And Wendy and Richard surely took that for the compliment it was, and as they decided to bring the EQ arc to it's conclusion, they thought they'd really nail it to the Hero's Journey, on purpose this time. And that self-consciousness is absolutely deadly. It killed the magic for me because I can feel it on every page, like if you go to a concert and the musician is playing their music but the instruments are all untuned. It particularly went off the rails with the Tim-tam reveal for me, because that's just so darn literal. There's a reason why the "encounter with the higher self" is usually symbolic in literature and mythology. The Tim-Tam development was surprising and brave--I'll give them that. But I've come down on the side of just hating the inelegance and hamfistedness of it all.

It sounds like you're in the same boat, Sungirl. I really wish FQ was working for me. I hate that it's not. I'd love strudel or pie. But like Sungirl said, for me this isn't even dessert.

Wisp, you've nailed it for me, I feel the same way as well. I didn't even remember when the past 2 issues came out and I was slow in getting them , a lot of that excitement is just gone now. I'll follow the story to its end but I'm no longer having that excitement I used to have.

Got my copy today. I really feel for Two-Edge. Venka let him down gently, but you still can't say stuff like that tactfully no matter how you try.

Two-Edge may well be alone forever. That sucks beyond belief.

On the other side, Cutter really does seem to be coming to terms with his situation. With no pressure, maybe at some point he'll be able to share the truth with Leetah, at least. I honestly don't think he can keep it from her for too long. A while, yes. But not too long.

And Daboi, such a fish outta water. Poor guy. I hope he can find a place where he can use his skills and be comfortable where he ends up.

And Venka versus Rayek? That's actually a kinda scary thought. Seeing them go at it will likely be explosive.

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Two-Edge may well be alone forever. That sucks beyond belief.

My thoughs went in the opposite direction, more like "yay! Now he's free from his obsession! he can find someone who loves him!"

Miscellaneous wrote:

Quote :

Two-Edge may well be alone forever. That sucks beyond belief.

My thoughs went in the opposite direction, more like "yay! Now he's free from his obsession! he can find someone who loves him!"

Same. I felt that he finally understood her feelings does not match his own, and respected them. Even if it hurts.

I'm looking forward to the confrontation between Venka and Rayek. Very very much. This has been something Kahvi wanted, for her daughter to teach him a lesson. She never had to, but now... oh boy. This could be very interesting.