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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:42 pm

It was said of Toorah and Suntoucber's Recognition that "soul meets soul when eyes meet eyes" took on new meaning, since he is blind.

The Go-Backs are definitely the only (currently known) elf-tribe to regularly reproduce without Recognition. Among other things there's the conversation Khavi and Rayek had in book 4.

"So SHE threw you over for the wolf-chief, eh?"
"It was Recognition."
"Recog--? Oh. WE'VE been breeding without that since before we called ourselves Go-Backs!"
"It shows!"
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:52 pm

Tymber... the entire first graphic novel was about how the Sun Folk handled recognition. They had ancient rituals and elaborate ceremonies dedicated to it. Of course they had heard of it, and of course it was part of their culture!

Winnowil and the Gliders also obviously knew what recognition was as well. They knew what was up with Tyldak and Dewshine. Winnowil, in her conversation with Leetah, said that "even Dewshine" would leave, "once she and Tyldak" had "answered the call of recognition" (or something similar). And when Lord Voll saw Dewshine collapse and asked what was wrong with her, Tyldak said "It is recognition!" At which point, Voll was delighted and said "you can't know what this means to me-- recognition hasn't happened to the Gliders for so long!" (or something similar)... So clearly the Gliders collectively knew about recognition.

"Breeding without it" seems to be a new approach to reproduction that is pretty much unique to the Go Backs. The implication is that their bypassing of the admittedly slow process of recognition occurred because of their high death rate.

So basically, they breed like humans. And, like humans, they don't tend to send or use magic. Or at least back then they didn't.

The way I understood it, recognition occurred because the high ones had pretty much forgotten how to reproduce. Like the Gliders in the mountain (who had stopped breeding), their population had reached a stasis inside their space shell. Recognition was triggered again when they crashed and found that their numbers were fewer and the space they had to populate much bigger.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:57 am

@Lunakat wrote:

Tymber... the entire first graphic novel was about how the Sun Folk handled recognition. They had ancient rituals and elaborate ceremonies dedicated to it. Of course they had heard of it, and of course it was part of their culture!

Which graphic novel?

@Lunakat wrote:

The way I understood it, recognition occurred because the high ones had pretty much forgotten how to reproduce. Like the Gliders in the mountain (who had stopped breeding), their population had reached a stasis inside their space shell. Recognition was triggered again when they crashed and found that their numbers were fewer and the space they had to populate much bigger.

Forgot how to produce... so they forgot something as basic as race survival... (I have this part, that fits into that part! Oh hey! Babies!)

Anyway - so that goes back to Soul Names then.

If Soul Names happen in the womb; how can some (aside from, say Go-Backs) be born without Soul Names?

Going back to what Katheen had said:
Quote :

Like, Suntop was named a Wolfrider name. He was later raised almost completely as a Wolfrider. Serrin and Kimo were basically raised as Sun Villagers, hence no soul name.

So, perhaps my lack of memory - and not remembering Sun Villagers Recognized - stemmed from the idea - they have no Soul Names? So can, I assume (again, memory is Hades), two elves Recognize - despite not having Soul Names? If so - what exactly is the process - if they're not seeing their "inner soul names" - do they simply see an inner soul, sans the "name" part?


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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:27 am

@Tymber wrote:
@Lunakat wrote:

Tymber... the entire first graphic novel was about how the Sun Folk handled recognition. They had ancient rituals and elaborate ceremonies dedicated to it. Of course they had heard of it, and of course it was part of their culture!

Which graphic novel?
Elfquest Book 1


@Tymber wrote:
@Lunakat wrote:

The way I understood it, recognition occurred because the high ones had pretty much forgotten how to reproduce. Like the Gliders in the mountain (who had stopped breeding), their population had reached a stasis inside their space shell. Recognition was triggered again when they crashed and found that their numbers were fewer and the space they had to populate much bigger.

Forgot how to produce... so they forgot something as basic as race survival... (I have this part, that fits into that part! Oh hey! Babies!)
They totally did. Because they weren't dying. So they didn't need birth. The population just stayed static.

@Tymber wrote:
Anyway - so that goes back to Soul Names then.

If Soul Names happen in the womb; how can some (aside from, say Go-Backs) be born without Soul Names?
Only the Wolfriders are born with soul names. Soul names aren't standard for elves.

@Tymber wrote:
Going back to what Katheen had said:
Quote :

Like, Suntop was named a Wolfrider name. He was later raised almost completely as a Wolfrider. Serrin and Kimo were basically raised as Sun Villagers, hence no soul name.

So, perhaps my lack of memory - and not remembering Sun Villagers Recognized - stemmed from the idea - they have no Soul Names? So can, I assume (again, memory is Hades), two elves Recognize - despite not having Soul Names? If so - what exactly is the process - if they're not seeing their "inner soul names" - do they simply see an inner soul, sans the "name" part?

Soul names have never been necessary for recognition. They just pop up when Wolfriders recognize. I mean-- it's not like without a soul name you have no soul. Leetah still had a soul and Cutter perceived it. He's still connected to her by recognition. Even though she had no secret name for him to learn.

Savah chalked it up to an issue of internal privacy and protecting individuality. She said that Sunfolk, because they were unable to send,  had "no need for a secret name to protect our innermost selves" (or something like that.

But other elves that can send do not have soul names either.

My guess is this... The general tendency of elves seems to be to group together into sort of an integrated whole. They seem to function almost like insects-- with individuals taking on tasks for the entire group and subsuming their identities to those tasks. Savah, for example, becomes the "mother of memory" and holds the memories of her people. This is very similar to Egg, who records those memories and histories in stone. Or Orolin who turned them in the scrolls. Leetah and Winnowil are the respective healers for their groups. Elves like Door and Brace... and Aurek and Yurek... and Timmain... and even Sun Toucher... don't seem to mind losing themselves (or their eyesight! Or sacrificing their lives) in their work. Some of them literally become the job they do. And this is very reminiscent of the High Ones-- who joined their minds together to power and guide their ship, and who fully lowered the boundaries between their individual selves (Remember Timmain's first sending to Strongbow? Remember how he reacted and why?).

I think, in their most natural state, the elves form some kind of hive mind or hive-like society. All of the elves live in collective groups-- and the ones that don't are disturbed (Tier, Windkin, Dre Ahn) ...

But the Wolfriders are different. Why? Because they are part wolf. Wolves are pack animals-- but they are also individual beings with no capacity to establish a telepathic connection. I think it's the wolf/elf mixing that generates the soul name. Because some part of the Wolfrider soul needs to remain protected and individual, even in the act of sending and locking minds with another person. So... a full elf (ie-- full alien) doesn't need a soul name because there is no need for that element of privacy in their psyche. And a full wolf doesn't need one because, well... no chance of the mind being linked to another's mind. But a wolf-elf is born with a part of their mind locked off from being accessed by someone else... that's where the center of their being is... and the key to getting in is the soul name.

Anyways-- that's my theory.

I figure Sunstream has a soul name because, immortal or not, he is still part Wolfrider and must have inherited some aspect of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:34 am

I also think that's why Timmain lost herself in becoming a wolf-- whereas Kimo did not. Kimo is part wolfrider, right? He doesn't lose himself in his task.

The Wolfriders did live in a collective society, like the other elves, with a singular leader/lord/chief. They did have a healer, a tanner, a storyteller (mother/father of memory?), etc.. But, while they are inclined to lose themselves in the moment-- they don't lose themselves to the task. Because they can't spare the loss of anyone. But also because they are part mortal beings of the abode-- and it's not completely in their nature to do that.

(Or so I would guess!) study

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:30 am

I love your point of view on soul names, Lunakat. It's so understandable and logical for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:38 am

That would be a reallly interesting plot twist Smile Like: alll mortal elves prepare to "become one" with the hive mind, but the part-wolf Wolfriders can't let go of their individuality.
Timmain is offering the horror vision of communism Razz


BTW, I think the sole reason why Sunstream has a soul name, is because everyone considers a soulname as something cool. Fans want this "two eyes meet and secret name pops up" moment

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:08 am

I dunno-- I think Miss G is probably right about Suntop.. Wink But I like to try to make things fit.

Yeah-- that would be horrific to the Wolfriders, right? Hah. And Skywise wants everyone to have universal health care!

I dunno. I just like to make things fit-- and this was the most logical explanation I could come up with. Otherwise... it just seems like the whole "soul name" business is pretty contradictory.

I used to think that the difference was that elves like Leetah or Anatim or whoever... used their soul names as their actual names. That Leetah was Leetah's soul name. They just didn't keep them hidden.

But... then we run into an elf like Snakeskin... who I guess doesn't have a secret soul name either. And you know that his soul name just can't be Snakeskin!

So then I thought.. what else would make sense? This is the only way my brain can work it that would make sense. If anyone has a different, maybe better, idea, I'd be really interested to hear it!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:37 am

But even those 'non-descriptive' elven names have meaning, like Tyleet's.

It's more confusing, if Tam really should somehow be connected to the name 'Timmain'. I always thought soulnames are more of a concept, less of real words with a defined meaning. Otherwise, are all those elves with "ek" "ah" or whatever somehow one soul? (They are, probably, hive-wise, uhm)


Luna wrote:
Hah. And Skywise wants everyone to have universal health care!
The horror!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:23 am

Yeah-- I do not believe that Wendy ever had that planned from the start. I think she came up with that after completing the original story-- maybe before he Kings arc. But there does not seem to be enough set up for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:21 am

@Lunakat wrote:
I figure Sunstream has a soul name because, immortal or not, he is still part Wolfrider and must have inherited some aspect of that.

But so are Kimo and Serrin.
Of course we don't really know for sure that Kimo doesn't have a soulname as there's never really been a scene in which his soulname could be revealed. As for Serrin not having one; it could be either a mistake from Blair's part, or... Recognition knows!
Recognition knew that Serrin would live her life as a Sun Villager, then Palace Dweller, and therefore wouldn't need a soulname.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:32 am

In that case, no child born out recognition would ever die or at least not until s/he fulfilled his or her purpose, because recognition knows the future. Does this mean Wing doesn't have a soulname? And shouldn't Woodlocker and Rainsong have wondered about his missing soulname? What about Newstar? Or Mender? Or Dart? He'd be kind of a weird "needs-needs not"-on and off case.


Nah, if a soulname was something that protects the inner self of a Wolfrider, there's absolutely no reason why Sunstream should have one.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:36 am

I don't think it's that sentient or prescient.

I dunno-- maybe they just didn't inherit that? In the scene of Dart recognizing Serrin, did he learn her soul name? Or was it just Serrin?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:39 am

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
In that case, no child born out recognition would ever die or at least not until s/he fulfilled his or her purpose, because recognition knows the future.
I agree-- that wouldn't make sense.

Quote :
Does this mean Wing doesn't have a soulname? And shouldn't Woodlocker and Rainsong have wondered about his missing soulname? What about Newstar? Or Mender? Or Dart? He'd be kind of a weird "needs-needs not"-on and off case.
I can't imagine why that would be the case...


Quote :
Nah, if a soulname was something that protects the inner self of a Wolfrider, there's absolutely no reason why Sunstream should have one.
Except that he's half wolfrider

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:08 am

@Lunakat wrote:

Quote :
Nah, if a soulname was something that protects the inner self of a Wolfrider, there's absolutely no reason why Sunstream should have one.
Except that he's half wolfrider

He has no wolfblood, I think, so why should his inner self need protection?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:42 am

My own theory of Recognition has always pretty much matched what Luna posted above, but thinking about it now - if the High Ones lived with some kind of hive-mind, wouldn't that make having that little section of yourself inaccessible even more important? Something that would keep your individuality so you don't get subsumed into the collective? Especially if you consider that they were shape-changers, and in the anthologies would even change their names. Seems like there would have to be some hidden constant that would allow others to literally recognize another individual, no matter what they looked like or were being called at the time.

So maybe I had it backward. Maybe the soul-name is not what makes the individual. Maybe it is a piece of a collective soul that is shared by several individuals. Kind of the framework, then as the individual develops, all their individual development hangs off and covers it, if you will. Or maybe, kind of the string of a necklace, and the individuals are the beads on it, different but all strung together.

So "Tam" is the collective identity that both Timmain and Cutter share. Like, if you ever saw the Star Trek where they were dealing with a race of symbiotes, Cutter and Timmain are the hosts for an intangible symbiote that gets distributed through several bodies.

Maybe we'll find that the High-Ones have soul-names, too. Soul-name were lost in tribes that had moved away from close personal connections - the Sunfolk and Go-backs because they stopped sending, the gliders and wavedancers - maybe they just stopped having that connection?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:20 am

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
@Lunakat wrote:

Quote :
Nah, if a soulname was something that protects the inner self of a Wolfrider, there's absolutely no reason why Sunstream should have one.
Except that he's half wolfrider

He has no wolfblood, I think, so why should his inner self need protection?

Maybe it's not that cut and dry. He looks like Joyleaf. He must have inherited something from Cutter. When Leetah says he had not Wolfblood-- I assumed she was talking about mortality. He also seems not to have bonded with a wolf like Ember did. But that doesn't mean he can't have inherited some other aspect of his father's being-- other traits that go along w being a Wolfriders.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:23 am

@Outlier-- that's really interesting.

And it's funny you should say that. I was just reading this morning about the 'observer effect' in quantum mechanics and the theory that our universe is either a mathematical/holigraphic projection or universally conscious-- both of which would make us "all one" (and maybe even all nothing!)

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:55 am

Just to clarify; when I said that Recognitions knows I didn't mean that it knows everything, if that was the case I suppose Ember and Teir would've instantly re-Recognized after denying their Recognition.
However, it does know something namely who will be a good genetic match, it certainly knew that Woodlock and Rainsong was definitely a good match. It's also interesting that both One-Eye and Clearbrook, and Strongbow and Moonshade re-Recognized after losing their first child.
So while Recognition couldn't know that full-Wolfrider Wing would eventually end up living most of his life in Sorrow's End and 'Go Native', it might have been able to know that part-Wolfrider Serrin would eventually take mostly after her Sunfolk mother.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:22 pm

Didn't someone (Richard, actually, I think) on the old forum say, that a soulname is like a pretty butterfly one shouldn't try to dissect? This probably also applies for recognition.

If recognition was about making genetically ideal children, why doesn't a couple keep on recognising after the first hit? How did the Go Backs manage to start procreating without recognising? If it's something which just happens once in a while, there should be many more children born out ofwedlock recognition (judging by the elven approach to sex). And this "imminent danger is near, so let's produce one child"-thing is absolutely nonsensical, surviving-wise

We shouldn't think about too much about the mechanics of recognition or the functioning of soulnames. Let's just admire its beauty


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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:48 pm

@Miss Gillespie wrote:
If recognition was about making genetically ideal children, why doesn't a couple keep on recognising after the first hit?

And why don't two people always recognize instantly upon meating - or at least upon the younger - if there's an age difference - being 'old enough'.
Cutter and Leetah recognized instantly upon meeting, same with Tyldak and Dewshine - as far as I know.

As for why couples don't keep recognizing, well... there is one famous couple who did pretty much that. Razz


Maybe the full phrase should read:

Recognition knows. However, don't think it will let you know what it is it knows and don't attempt to apply logic to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:36 pm

Maybe it's not just who you hook up with, but also the timing of it?

Like-- maybe sometimes you are just a better kind of fertile than others?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:39 pm

@Outlier wrote:
if the High Ones lived with some kind of hive-mind, wouldn't that make having that little section of yourself inaccessible even more important?

Only if you value that. Sharing everything and being completely open doesn't appear to eradicate the individual-- Timmain is still Timmain, even though she communicates that way. But it doesn't seem important to her to not share everything. Except... when it comes to answering people's questions in Final Quest. In that situation, she is so obscure!

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:52 pm

Timmain says it took her a while to realize who Cutter was, so even if they do share some eternal part, it must not be obvious at first. So maybe recognition is like seeing an old friend. "Is that...? I should go say hi. But, no, it isn't. Is it?"

So recognition doesn'the always happen right away because it takes a while for the eternal parts to be sure.

And maybe only wolfriders give names to that part because, with their physical and mental intimacy they are always pushing up against them.

Maybe Timmain really was trying to "recognize" Strongbow- "who is that inside the meat costume?"

And I know it'sounds silly to pick apart and idea from some author that they themselves haven't probably thought about as much, but it's fun! Although this is getting a little more spiritual than I usually am comfortable with.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest #11   Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:09 pm

Sunstream needs a soulname because he's the link. He is now connected to every elf in existence, it seems. At the very least, their presence is probably like perpetual tinnitus in the back of his mind. To avoid getting lost in them, he needs to remember that at the core, he's Klynn. That name sums up Sunstream and everything that's part of who he is: Wolfrider, Sun Villager, psychic, lifemate, father, son, brother, student (and maybe teacher someday?).

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