Bad Moments from Favourite Characters

Redhead Ember wrote:

Pretty sure Venka hasn't read the Oxford Dictionary.

Really? Like really?
Of course Venka hasn't read the Oxford dictionary, she is a fictional character, she doesn't exist. But her creator is a native English speaker and I give her the credit that she knows her own mother tongue. When Wendy uses the word childish, she means childish. And the problem is not some bad translation from the elven language.

'Childish' always seems to be used to describe some negative traits?
Childish isn't interchangeable with childlike.

wingthing wrote:

I'd like them a lot more if they came in some different styles other than "clumsily tied sack dress transparent enough to show everything except nipples, apparently"

Pretty much the same? It just doesn't seem to come more than one shape, super loose, barely holding it's place on the body.

As for Venka's comment... hmm. It sounded to me that she was trying to justify why she was frustrated with why Two-Edge was unwilling to go to Blue Mountain, at the same time trying to say that she understood it at the same time.

Which, granted, can be hard to say without coming off as patronizing.

Not for anyone character, but for the setting overall...

"Ravvit", "punkin" and other Piers Anthony-inspired "fantasy" spellings.

Rabbits were called rabbits in the OQ and the novelization. There was no need to change it. Same thing with pumpkins, which were only alluded to BoTC series.

Orson Scott Card isn't all that and a bag of chips, but he did get one thing right, imo, in his book about writing fantasy and science fiction: if it's bread and not some special unique important thing in your world, call it bread!

I sort of liked ravvit-- because it wasn't the same type of animal-- on account of being a different planet. You know how like a hare and a rabbit aren't the same.. that thing.

Is Pike feeding Egg wine a "bad" moment? I can't decide.

Addict giving an intoxicating substance to an unconscious person? Actually, it's pretty much disgusting.

You have a point

Pike is not an alcohol adict. He's not even drinking dreamberry wine on a regular base. He's munching dreamberries. And yes, he loves to do so - a bit more than most.

Dreamberries are part of his job. Dreamberries are an "instrument" for a howl keeper to remember. An instrument to make his audiance more receptive.

Alcohol makes you forget what happened. Dreamberries make you remember. Clearly same thing, huh?

*Rolls eyes in unison and seconds Em's words* - this is getting annoying. Being both a fan of Strongbow AND Pike I seriously don't get what some of you are thinking.

Egg's state is not unconscious but superconscious - were he unconscious, he would not be able to swallow. That applies to all living, breathing things, elves too I would think. Slipping him a drink is what in Germany is called a Schnapsidee - an idea born of intoxication that may not be always a bad one. As we can clearly see, Pike is not used to anything as strong as dreamberry wine and therefore surely not an addict.

It's not a bad moment. Probably not a wise one either, but definitely a funny one!

He's a dreamberry addict then. Guys- he's totally an addict. That's half his personality.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

Pretty sure Venka hasn't read the Oxford Dictionary.

Really? Like really?
Of course Venka hasn't read the Oxford dictionary, she is a fictional character, she doesn't exist. But her creator is a native English speaker and I give her the credit that she knows her own mother tongue. When Wendy uses the word childish, she means childish. And the problem is not some bad translation from the elven language.

I know that Wendy very likely has read the Dictionary, or at least has some kind of familiarity with it. But the thing is; language is not static and set-in-stone, it's organic, fluid. When you're writing - especially when what you're writing is a fantasy story set on a different world - you don't need to adhere strictly to the detailed dictionary definition of a word. As long as you stick to the overall meaning you can play around with it. The overall meaning of childish is behaving like a child, whether that's seen as something positive or something negative - or simply something neutral - depends on the (cultural) context. For us it might seem like a negative thing, because we live in a culture (cultures?) in which people are expected to behave as grownups once they reach a certain age, but again; I don't think the elves have that in their various cultures.
Moreover, I'm not so sure calling someone a slave to his childish urges is the same as saying that said person is being childish in the just grow up, already sense. When you're saying that someone ought to grow up, you're also implicitly saying that they can, that their behaviour is completely within their own control. However, when you call someone a slave to something, you're acknowledging that it's outside their control. Venka calls Two-Edge's behaviour childish, because it is childish, but at the same time she also sees that the reason for his behaviour is not something he can control. She's neither stating this as a bad nor a good thing - after all; it's not a good thing - but just as a fact.

Two-Edge is a slave to the notion that people should follow his plans, play by his rules.
Back during the OQ he based his entire plan on a simple The race that wins will be the race I consider myself to be notion, even if the ways he used to get there was anything but simple.
Now, it seems that in his mind it was a simple matter of I'll live in these tunnels with my maiden, and everything will be fine.
He even lays blame after rather simple notions; in his mind Cutter is the one to blame for everything, even though - when you think about it - in neither of the two situations were Two-Edge's plan failing really Cutter's fault.
In the OQ it was Picknose's decision to continue fighting by the elves' side after they had found the Treasure, and for a rather petty reason; I didn't get gold!
In the Final Quest it was Venka's own decision to continue being the Go-Back's leader, and therefore go away in the Palace.

Wow- Ember. I completely agree!

sorry to get technical, but i don't think Pike gave Egg dreamberry wine..? if i recall correctly, when he was sitting at the table he was saying "not dreamberries, but still just as good!" so some kind of alchoholic content, but not dreamberries. possibly some kind of regular wine?

and he may be an addict, but he's our loveable addict <3

Here's a bit of a weird one.

Could Timmain not bringing Haken with her on her journey of discovery in HY6/7 be a case? She did say he would have appreciated it, and then he wouldn't have gone to the Palace and... well... kinda lost it.

Vaeri wrote:

sorry to get technical, but i don't think Pike gave Egg dreamberry wine..? if i recall correctly, when he was sitting at the table he was saying "not dreamberries, but still just as good!" so some kind of alchoholic content, but not dreamberries. possibly some kind of regular wine?

and he may be an addict, but he's our loveable addict <3

Yeah- I guess! Sure.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Here's a bit of a weird one.

Could Timmain not bringing Haken with her on her journey of discovery in HY6/7 be a case? She did say he would have appreciated it, and then he wouldn't have gone to the Palace and... well... kinda lost it.

Maybe. But is she responsible for hindsight?

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Venka is rude when she calls his rage childish. Saying that someone would be a good ruler for a -literally- degenerated, brainless mob is also very degrading.

But for the first part, maybe she's right? Childish or not, he might be a victim of his bipolar emotions.
For the second, it could also mean, that he is one of the few capable of handling such a crowd. It's a matter of perspective in that case if your interpretation of her words seem positive or negative.

Her words are negative yet accurate. It's not like anyone's ever viewed TwoEdge as stable.
But it is also somewhat degrading to say someone is worth leading a mindless blob mob because, ya know, maybe he can relate. It's sad.

Venka's always been detached yet compassionate. I honestly don't think so much time has been spent in FQ developing her story since she's not the focus. And that's okay, I guess, but it's also speaking volumes about how the story focus has been squarely put on Cutter even more so now, even at the expense of other juicy subplots, so it's making me feel like the payoff had better really be worth it.

But are we now being rude to the mindless blob mob?

We're not being very PC about them

Hey, I just thought of another thing I don't like by a character I like. When Clearbrook stabbed Two Edge that was kind of crappy, huh, especially when he was essentially handing Windkin back to her. Did we talk about that yet?

Zadzi wrote:

Hey, I just thought of another thing I don't like by a character I like. When Clearbrook stabbed Two Edge that was kind of crappy, huh, especially when he was essentially handing Windkin back to her. Did we talk about that yet?

Interesting one. I went back to read that part because I haven't looked at it in a while, and I just had to call out the look on Tyldak's face when he's flying off with Windkin. Windkin says "Bah...!? Bahbah...?" which I strongly suspect might be the elvish equivalent of "Dada"--or at least Tyldak is taking it that way to judge by the faint look of wonder on his face. It's so so subtle, but when I look at that panel (bottom page 8, SaBM #8) his expression says so much, just VERY subtly. This is what I miss most in FQ. This is what you lose when you get cut-and-paste art and recycled faces. But that's a complaint for another thread...

By that same token, I'd forgotten just how complex the confrontation between Clearbrook and Two-Edge is. We see Clearbrook's face three times on page 9 during and after the stabbing. When she first strikes him (top right) she looks like a stone-cold killer. Just after (middle left,) she looks like an impassive observer of the execution of justice. And finally, after she looks into Two-Edge's eyes and sees his pain/remorse/understanding/acceptance, we get an amazing look at her face. It's hard to describe exactly what we're seeing, but she's clearly coming out the other side of her rage and desire a for vengeance. Presumably this is either when Two-Edge sends to her or immediately prior.

Clearbrook's violence against Two-Edge reminds me of the brawl between Rayek and Cutter after KotBW. Like Two-Edge, Rayek understood the nature of Cutter's rage, and he knew that it would take violence to purge the wound. I guess I can't come right out and say Clearbrook's decision to stab Two-Edge was simply a "bad moment" for her character, although objectively it sort of was. He wasn't a threat to her or to Windkin. She struck out of a desire for revenge, pure and simple. But that story arc was so redemptive, I think it needed that ending. For me, it's not equivalent to a tossed-off line from Strongbow about how Cutter should just satisfy recognition with Leetah by force, or Bearclaw being physically abusive towards his friends and family, or something like that. Don't know if that actually makes any sense.

Regardless, an interesting moment to call out, and I'm glad to have gone back and reread it.

I really like your assessment, Wisp.

Thank you, Lunakat. I appreciate it.