Final Quest #12

What I'm getting from FiQu is the feeling that Wendy doesn't really care any more, there's no passion for the story. For whatever reason, she wants to get it finished but her heart doesn't seem to be in it. OQ was sublime, almost perfectly crafted. The art was wonderful, characters were finely nuanced and relatable, the story was well paced and allowed to develop without being rushed. But it's gradually been downhill ever since. SaBM was not bad, CFB was ok, a few of the Hidden Years stories and bits of Shards/Wild Hunt were ok but nowhere near the standard of OQ. Wendy handed over to others who were sometimes painfully bad and there didn't seem to be any consistency or quality control...you don't let that happen to something you care about. Then along came SatS which was reasonable, Discovery was quite poor and now FQ...I don't even know what to say about FQ. I started reading OQ over 30 years ago when the story was first published as a black & white comic, with around four months to wait between issues. The wait was agonising but worth it, because it was magical. Now I'm just reading for the sake of completion but there's no anticipation or excitement. If I was new to EQ I wouldn't bother.

Outlier, I just got goosebumps!

manga wrote:

Idea:

Leetah's LACK of reaction to Timmain after Cutter flees the Palace is a clue to her connection to the High One.  Timmain referred to her as "our beloved lifemate," which would seem to indicate she has feelings towards Leetah (insert snark from Wingthing here ) and maybe, on a subconscious level, Leetah feels the same.

After all, when it's a case of someone you love hurting someone else you love, you don't go to quite the same DEFCON level, at least to start, as you would if it were anyone else.

I don't really see how her lack of reaction is a clue to how she feels, that is pure speculation and assumption. I mean maybe she feels something and maybe she doesn't, and we've been consistently shown she doesn't. I don't think we can glean subconscious feelings from a lack of reaction - maybe we can pick up clues from body language...in real life, even in tics and poses in characters drawn, but I am not seeing anything here indicating Leetah is even remotely emotionally connected to Timmain. She's civil to her because she is a high one and that has always been all.
They have never been shown to have any kind of relationship, not even a superficial one, which is the reason why all of this is so jarringly strange to me.

I'm just frustrated by this, forgive me if my tone seems a little off or something. Timmain really might've considered approaching Cutter's lifemate and speaking to her directly - it's just so odd how Timmain calls her 'our beloved lifemate' and was all 'You're a healer of some small skill' the first time she meets her. Then promptly proceeds to use Suntop as her channel while she's in wrapstuff, wearing the little elf out. Some 'lifemate'. No, I don't buy for a second Timmain has any feelings for Leetah or either of Cutter's offspring. This shoehorned progression of soul-sharing is glaringly awkward.

Outlier wrote:

Is it wrong that this:


makes me think of this?

Holy pickled wombats, that's creepy. I knew something felt off in that panel, but I couldn't place it.

I honestly don't see all the bad art, inconsistent story, bad pacing thing you're all talking about.

Re-used art, where? The only times I've noticed re-used art is during flashbacks, and even in those there had been plenty of new art; the slightly different angle at the first fight against the trolls back during OQ in issue 6, the shot of Shushen with the... fruit... in issue 11.

How is the story inconsistent? Nothing that's been said or done within the storyline has suddenly been thrown in a completely different direction. Sure, some of the stuff that has been revealed during FQ has put earlier stuff in a different light, but never in a We'll just pretend that never happened kind of way:
When Teir told Ember about his family back during HY he was telling her about his family, his adopted family, sure, but still his family.
Nightfall is unsure whether or not Kahvi woke her from the long sleep, because, hey, it was quite a long time ago. (Also Wendy and Richard are evil and probably enjoy torturing us with these little You'll never know! nuggets.)
As for Dart going from You're like a blond Winnowill! to You're my lovemate! about Mender; couldn't it be because he liked him he voiced those concerns back then? As in Look, I really like you, but you're kind scaring me and I'd hate to see you turn out like Winnowill. Then, during those 10 years, they slowly grew closer with Dart keeping some of Mender's darker urges in check - making him do right rather than fight - while Mender slowly was able to unlock some of the pain and hurt that had been locked away in Dart's heart for far too long.

As for the pacing; sure, the pacing had been a bit in waves, but that's life! Life itself doesn't have perfect pacing. Sometimes nothing happens, and something, everything happens at once.

Maybe we should have a thread to post examples of the reused art?

I can't really stop wondering who still buys this. I'm a little worried that the publisher will pull the plug on it- so many old fans have given up on it, and I can't imagine any new readers getting into this. It's a thing of sadness.

Oh, believe me, we are many who still buy.

As for re-used art, let me see:

The Special:
Cutter's memories. Flashback.
Reef's memories. Again, flashback.

Issue 1:
Teir's lock-triggered memory. Sure, it's sort of re-used from Recognition but Volume 1 (issues 1-6) are the Recognition storyline being completed. In fact quite a lot of the art is re-used because it's the same story.

Issue 2:
None.

Issue 3:
None.

Issue 4:
The scene where Angrif reveals what happened to Ardan could be re-used art from Wavedancers. But again; Flashback.
The shot with Leetah from way back during Fire and Flight: Flashback.

Issue 5:
If there is any it's in the scene where Kahvi tells Teir why she gave him up, but it seems more like the same scene shown from a different angle.

Issue 6:
None. The flashback to the first battle against the trolls is shown from a new angle.

Issue 7:
Windkin reminding Aroree what happened during SaBM, flashback.
Shenshen remembering when she delivered Shukopek, more flashback. For the first time a flashback to something that happened during FQ.
The shot from Shenshen's dream; well... flashback.

Issue 8:
None.

Issue 9:
Savah explaining to Skywise the importance of letting every elf who might answer The Call. Flashback. A flashback going back some 20,000+ years but still.

Issue 10:
None.

Issue 11:
Timmain talking (or well, sending) about when Cutter saved and when he first encountered her wolf-self. Once again; flashback.

Issue 12:
Cutter-Timmain explaining to Cutter the nature of their link. Dare I say it? More flashback.
Ember's horrified look from seeing the gun. Flashback - from within FQ.
Windkin rescuing Ember, once Again flashback from within FQ.

Red, I think you may be misunderstanding what people are talking about when they complain about reused art. They aren't talking about old scenes being shown again. There are some examples in another thread showing Leetah's face - and it's clearly the same base with tweaks, used over and over, it isn't drawn fresh for each scene. There are lots of instances in FQ of this kind of thing.

Could you provide a link (or just issue numbers and pages)? Because I really don't see how Leetah looking the same between scenes is a bad thing.
Haven't it always been the same base with each character?

When I complain about "reused art," I'm definitely not talking about the "flashback" scenes from earlier comics that you listed, Redhead Ember. In theory, I don't have a problem with such flashbacks at all. In practice, I think they often ruin the unity of the pages on which they appear because Wendy's old style was so different from the style of Final Quest, but that's a matter of opinion.

I'm glad that you haven't noticed the other, more egregious, "short-cut" art in Final Quest. It's probably a big part of why you're able to enjoy it. And I'm glad it's making you happy! I wish I could enjoy it too.

When we say that Wendy uses "the same base" with every character, we don't mean that she has an image in her head or that she draws them consistently. The problem we're noticing is a product of her switch to digital drawing as opposed to good old paper, pencil and ink. Wendy has described (on facebook, I believe) how she has template images of each character in her tablet. She can just plop this "clip art" character into a scene, move the arms and legs a little (just like a paper doll), paste on new eyes or a new mouth (for a different expression,) and voila!

ErinC1978 put together an excellent sample of images from the last few issues in the "Final Quest #12" thread at the bottom of page 31. There, you can see how a single drawing of Leetah's face was used in a dozen panels with only minor modification. Wendy did not draw Leetah from scratch in these panels. She copy-and-pasted the base image, and then adjusted an eye here or a mouth there, positioned the hands,flipped or rotated the image so that the character faces another direction, etc.

Here's another quick example with Korafay: Issue 8, cover and page 7; Issue 11, page 4; Issue 12, page 12. These are all the same image with slight adjustments made using the computer, and I'd wager it's been used other times too but I don't have time to look for more examples. I'd estimate that at least 20% of the art in each issue is recycled in this way. Once you see this stuff, you can't unsee it. And you can't stop noticing it either. It's annoying and it makes the art feel cheap and rushed.

Anytime there's a panel with more than 2 elves in it, at least some (if not all) of them are cut-and-paste jobs. The crowd scenes look terrible for this reason. The characters look like they've been plucked from different panels and jumbled together in a sack. The frankly crappy coloring doesn't help matters.

Another example is the talk Dart and Mender have about Shushen: three times the same Dart face on one page, with small changes to the mouth and one time with eyes open instead of closed. And two Mender-faces are also re-used.
I wish I could stop seeing the re-used art. It annoys me even more than paint-bucket-colors!

Of course has the same face.
Especially if you're talking those three panels in the middle of the first page of their talk; it's the same shot being zoomed in.

Elwing wrote:

It would make for an interesting standoff. Of course she hates Venka for always blocking her- and now that Venka is injured she is in a very powerful position. Venka dies, good for Winnowill.

Is it? Isn't the whole reason for Rayek keeping Winnowill's spirit to avoid the havoc she would cause if her spirit were free? What if Venka's spirit were free, too. Maybe she will have to sacrifice herself to keep Winnowill's spirit in check so the rest can make a clean get-away.

But it does look like the bullet just grazed her, so I think she'll be fine.

I know what you and the others are talking about ... and I can see it in direct comparism. Fortunately it does not "jump in my face" like it happens to some of you. What I notice - especially when looking for Advent calender art - is that the faces and expressions can not be associated with individual scenes as easily as the art of the OQ, Siege and Kings.

We know that by Rogue's Curse it'll still be status quo between Rayek and Winnowill.

Ember-- she does it a lot. More than if it were just for effect in a couple panels. Thornbrake wrote a really nice piece of the Elfquest website about how Wendy has a history of including these wonderful little details in the backgrounds of her panels. That was so true! I always noticed it-- and it was one of the most charming things about Elfquest art. It also really helped to enhance the story and the characters. There actually was a lot of character development in those little background moments-- and that's how we have all ended up loving characters that actually played a minimal role in the other story.

Wendy has masterful skills as a traditional artist. But ever since she started using PhotoShop, her art has declined. I was impressed that she was willing to try new mediums and to take risks that way. I have to give her acknowledgement for being willing to grow and change and adopt new skill sets. But, after all this time, it just doesn't seem to be her best tool. First it was the color -- the it was the clone stamp and pattern brushes-- and lately, in Final Quest specifically, she's been doing a lot of cutting and pasting of characters from one scene into another. Lately, she's been cutting and pasting body parts-- which isn't as blatant, but still doesn't work somehow. It saves time to do that, but at kind of a cheap ploy. I mean-- it jumps out at most of us as readers-- it makes the drawings look less natural and fluid. And also her drawing style has changed with using a cintiq-- the poses are stiffer and there are lots of scenes of characters just standing around staring, standing in rows or lines, flanking eachother awkwardly, etc.. And it contrasts with the fluidity we are used to in her art, does not allow for the "line of beauty" she talks about, and doesn't tend to include the charming background elements Thornbrake mentioned that are characteristic of her style of comic.

When David, Heather or Rob talk about the times she doesn't cut and paste, as if that's something remarkable, I sort of have to roll my eyes. Because it's not an extraordinary thing to draw out comic panels instead of cutting and pasting the elements of other panels into them. It's sort of just a basic standard. She never did it before-- and it's too obvious the way she does it for it to result in something that's of decent quality now. Most artists would not do that-- except for some obvious effect-- or if they do, I don't read their comics. We have bookcases full of comic books in which all the panels are individually  drawn. It's not a unique thing to do.

Picture an author who writes novels. Maybe this person wrote a couple of very lauded works. But then the writer decides to publish a final novel-- and in it he just kind of reuses some passages from the beginning of the novel in the middle and the end because, you know-- it's just easier. No one would say that was cool- unless it was a very deliberate stylistic choice-- and no one would pay him on the back for not doing it.

What an incredibly strange turn of events !... Never even expected anything like that, here.

wingthing wrote:

If I were Ember, I'd leave Tyleet in charge!

oh please dudette, we all know if you were Ember, you'd have kicked Cutter's AND Strongbows rumps off the cliff back when they were living on Thorny Mountain, taken over the wolfriders and stolen the palace yourself. :p

anyways, interesting contrasts...ugh i need to write down the EQ dreams i keep having! i HAD a dream a few weeks ago that Cutter and Leetah got into a knife/sword fight! the fact he was attacking her was weird. *cough* but i'll type that up and post it later. just gonna say for the record, i also dreamed about a tall High One like Leetah with still brown skill. SO JUST SAYING, I CALLED IT IF IT HAPPENS! premonition, yo.

i didn't even realize the whole Leetah being passive thing...either i'm just that clueless, not paying attention, or it didn't come across to me that way. though now i'm wondering why didn't they chase after Cutter then? Nightfall and Redlance WERE on wolves, yes? pretty sure they coulda kept up and just kept hollering at him rather than sending.

Vaeri wrote:

wingthing wrote:

If I were Ember, I'd leave Tyleet in charge!

oh please dudette, we all know if you were Ember, you'd have kicked Cutter's AND Strongbows rumps off the cliff back when they were living on Thorny Mountain, taken over the wolfriders and stolen the palace yourself. :p

Well... yeah.  

Not to mention some choice retribution for Mender the Molester there, and can you imagine Teir's face as I'd land the Palace right outside Howling Rock and snap "You, inside, now!" and - drukk it, Vaeri, stop giving me worldpool ideas!!!! My backlog of "must-writes" stretches into next Christmas already!

well i love worldpool stories, and you definitely make some of the best, wingthing! so hop to it and start writing those fingers to the bone! :p mwahahahahaha!

I'm still digesting the issue, despite multiple re-reads. A few thoughts off the top of my head.

The first six issues were mainly about wrapping up the old Recognition storyline, with setting the groundwork for individual character arcs (Moonshader) on the side, and some foreshadowing of the next six. Issues 7-12 reversed that: we saw more focus on personal characters' plotlines (Moonshade, Shenshen, Dart and Mender, Cutter) and not much focus on the 'big' plot. To use baseball phrases, this past year was the windup. Hopefully 2016 is the pitch.

I have to agree about cut and pasting faces and just rotating bodyparts. Yes, it's easier and quicker... but the art loses something. I think some of the best art has been in panels where Wendy hasn't done that. Like Lunakat I miss the detailed backgrounds (I keep thinking of the little quail family running past Leetah and Cutter as they try to talk to each other about their Recognition in OQ#5). And the skin tone colors... okay, some of it can be excused as the lighting, but yeah.. muddy.

I don't like Reef's new shape. It's ugly, and not much use against multiple guns, let alone cannon!

Cutter's freakout is perfectly understandable. And I called his quiescent attitude in the first four pages -- when the preview was released --as reminiscent of his scene with Winnowill in OQ#14.

I think what Wendy is implying is that Timmain merged part of her soul with the newly-created Tamsoul. I may put that out on the Elfquest fan page next week, see if I get an answer.

I don't think Venka is a "wuss" for reacting to being shot. Being shot hurts, and shoulder wounds, contrary to TV and movies, can be pretty debilitating.

I just read this issue and am still digesting it. I want to do another read before going in depth. But I do want to say this one thing: I thought the Reef transformation was fantastic, and it was the best thing in the issue.

What Reef has done is taken something that was used to harm him, and appropriated it for his own empowerment. He has embraced the form he lived in so long, made it part of himself and turned it into something strong and beautiful. Now he is whole. I love it.

To a degree, I have noticed Wendy has consistantly tried new (or relatively newer) artistic methods as time goes by. As Luna said, though, her strength is in traditional art. Im all for experimenting with new methods, and WaRP has always had to do things just a little different to be independent, but I havent seen a non-traditional method that has "clicked" for her/them:
>Attempt at GIF animation: Leetah Dancing-- wasnt keyframed, tweened, timed, or smoothed
>3D Cutter (as seen as a rotating GIF)-- looked like a pyramidic statue, uncolored, bad proportions, and Im sure it wasnt rigged (or perhaps even posable at all)
>Photoshop dynamic colors (cant remember when it started, Disco, or before?) I always thought it seemed like the level of work I was doing after a week and a half with Dr Halo's Gradient area fill (anyone remember THAT program?) That, or like taking stock photos of swirled stained glass and pasting them into the transparent layer/whitespace in the B&W drawings.... gives me the same feeling of cheapness that kool-aid dyed hair or artificially colored gems at the jewelry store do: the artistry level of the line with the level of tools available begs for far better (levels greater) outcomes, but time was not spent to master the tools (is how it feels. That said, I could do no better, but then Im not making a living as an artist either. My "razor" of quality, it seems, depends on if I have come across the effect being used during the course of my stumbling around with PS the few times I played with it, versus if the image leaves me scratching my head, wondering how the heck the artist did "that". I can hardly manipulate more than one layer, yet I feel as though I could do at least as well of coloring swirls filling in space and applying various filter effects on a drawing... and if I can do it, its not a "master" level of quality. I cant draw that well, the drawings are master level. The coloring I could do, and Im not even apprintice level, therefore it seems juvenile to me at times.)

The difference here is: with the GIF and 3D images, they were trials, one-offs, attempts at expanding the skill set and testing to see if something could be done. With the coloring thing, its just a shortcut, and it feels like a shortcut.

As to the copy/paste, I need to reread the stories and see these for myself. I seem to be blind to them.

That said, when I see the following:
Desire to animate and/or branch out into new mediums and/or grow the fanbase.
Affinity for taking shortcuts (as in copy/paste
Flood fills
Desire to reduce workload while increasing amount of produced content

I think to myself, why not go just the small added step and make flash animations of the story? Pull the characters into a pile of arms, legs, hands ,feet, etc, rig up stick figure with the artwork, and flat out animate the series. It doesnt need to be more than Happy Tree Friends meets How It Should Have Ended but it would make a rough movie or series within reach.

KR Wordgazer wrote:

What Reef has done is taken something that was used to harm him, and appropriated it for his own empowerment.  He has embraced the form he lived in so long, made it part of himself and turned it into something strong and beautiful.  Now he is whole.  I love it.

Yes! That was truly thrilling.