Final Quest #14

Maybe the reason we haven't been speaking about near-dead Cutter and the Scary Ones*, is that none of us can bear the thought that he could die. Admit it, Manga, even you would miss him.
Not to mention that we, to a certain extend, know what's going on with Strongbow and Moonshade, whereas we have no clue what's going on with Cutter - other than the fact that he's gone nutters. What are those Scary Ones gonna do with him? Shapechange him? Eat him? Chop him to pieces and use him for fertiliser?


*Just gonna use their name on the official page so far

I just don't see Cutter as dying probably (and even if he does, we've pretty much been guaranteed that he'll continue to exist in another tangible way, even if changed). I like him a lot and everything, but I think the reason a lot more of us are 'hung up' on Moonshade/Strongbow is because it's a more relatable (dare I say human?) emotional issue. We may know what's happening, but we also can relate to the pain and loss and crisis of it to an extent. Cutter's stuff is just so far out there with the whole soul split thing that I don't think it's even been fully processed and it's so completely unrelate-able, that there's almost an overwhelming amount of conclusions to speculate, none of them being entirely clear yet anyway. It's like scifi fantastical levels of concern at this point, which are more detached and cerebral.

Oh, well it's really the opposite for me. I mean Moonshade and Strongbow is more realistic, but though I understand the situation I don't relate to it at all, and the emotional impact isn't made clear to me so I don't like it.

While Tammain is insanely spacey, but the emotion is there so I strangely do relate to the emotion, even if I don't understand the situation, so I really like it.

I think Cutter is supposed to represent what is happening to the tribe/elves in general. And Moonshade and Strongbow are supposed to exemplify it.

Yeah-- Moonshade always has done things quietly. She expressed herself, before, through tanning and stitching clothes. If you ask me, that's pretty darn boring. And she wasn't like Chitter about it-- all cavalier and trendy. She just made things that fit and kept everyone warm-- and threw in her own practical, but artistic touches. Moonshade is essentially an artist. That's really boring to watch. I mean.. if you watched what artists do all day-- you would be bored to tears, folks. They sit, staring at a computer screen or a piece of paper for hours, obsessing over details and making miniscule changes... meanwhile everyone else goes out and plays soccer or something. Goes hiking. Kicks it at Burning Man! Has a great and active weekend that is probably really fun to be a part of. Now, what is Moonshade doing? Meditation and learning stuff. Again-- really boring to watch. I don't know about you guys, but when I was getting my undergrad, I spent a lot of time at a desk, staring at books. I think she's doing the Palace elf equivalent. It's not exactly glamorous-- but it can be rewarding.

So... I don't really care to see what she's doing. I've never cared to watch her work. I never cared to see the elaborate and detailed process of tanning hides. I have no idea how she dyes them. I don't know what she's doing in the Palace, either-- and I don't want pages spent on her sitting with her eyes closed, absorbing wisdom from spirits. I'm down with skipping over that.

What is more pertinent to me isn't what she's doing-- it's just the dynamics of her relationship. She's moving one way and Strongbow another. And this is basically the choice all the elves will have to face.

I think Cutter is supposed to be symbolic.

Maybe it would be boring to see see the process, but i'd still really like to see the art...

I don't think there's any chance of Cutter dying, at least not among the fungus elves. He might sacrifice himself in a confrontation with the humans at the palace or at the holt, but that will be when he's in his right mind and at peace with his identity. W&R are very explicit that Cutter's on a Joseph Campbell-style hero's journey. The hero goes to hell (literally in some stories,) and comes back stronger and wiser. He doesn't necessarily live happily ever after, but if his story ends in death, it's a powerful sacrifice--a hero's death. Dying in a ditch and being decomposed by sentient fungus...does not fit the bill.

I've been complaining for ages about the disconnect with the elves' life in the palace. The Sun Folk have gone from a lively, beautiful society to generic mass of bodies swathed in preserver silk. The Sunfolk and the Gliders were the only elf groups with the time and peace to fully develop material culture. They were distinctive and special, and I think it's a shame to see them served so poorly by the story.

As everyone's already said, the palace is alien. It's hard to relate to the psychic activity underway there. We can be told about it, but we can't really feel it. Moonshade is our window onto the seductive allure of life in the palace, and following her story would have been a great way to help us connect---not by showing us stars dying and being born or swirling eddies of light or whatever, but by more relatable means. Show me an image of Moonshade embracing her dead daughter in spirit form. Show her weeping as the spirits of One-Eye, Rillfisher, Woodlock, and Rainsong cluster around her as she whispers "I've missed you all--more than you can imagine!" Show her designing with Ahnshen, saying "Crude leather could never capture the beauty I imagined in my mind's eye, no matter how hard I tried." Or show her practicing actual magic, shaping a crystal for instance, saying "So this is what it's like for Redlance when he bends the trees to his will--I never dreamed it could feel so wonderful!"

Lunakat is right. Watching Moonshade read the scrolls or staring at the walls of the palace is about as interesting as watching paint dry. But I could relate to being reunited with a long lost child or departed friends. I can imagine my creativity taking flight if I were suddenly offered new tools and encouragement. These things are "human" enough for me to sympathize with.

namuhna wrote:

Maybe it would be boring to see see the process, but i'd still really like to see the art...

One part of the process I'd love to see is Moonshade hanging out with Ahnshen and designing clothes with him.
Could be really cool if they could become lovemates, or... who knows? Maybe they are lovemates!

Okay--you guys are right. Put that way, I agree.

Yes! Like I described before I got caught in the moment with the ooc laughing and dancing (which I'd much rather see the sun folk do than Moonshade) any kind thing that shows why Moonshade wants to be there!

I'd personally love to see them experience something through the scroll, like memories of other worlds or possibilities of finding other high ones, because that would solidify the need to leave and go to the stars as well.

Because, though in principle it doesn't matter, for the sake of engaging readers, it makes a huge difference.

The thing about Moonshade is that she was never a Shrinking Violet. Rather, one of the most opinionated,outspoken,bigoted and conservative Wolfriders out there, even more so than Strongbow. When Skywise had his wolf blood removed, there were hints through out Kings of the Broken Wheel while Moonshade's decision came out of the blue! She was never oppressed or held back and certainly not in the Wolfrider's egalitarian society!

There were hints that Moonshade was changing and growing as a person throughout Shards and Wild Hunt. The reason THIS decision feels like it came out of nowhere is because those hints were dropped as soon as those arcs finished.

Also, as far as Strongbow being restrained in thinking by the "Now" of wolf thought, if we consider the "The Way" as a religious standpoint, actually Strongbow, whose two first character defining moments include his powerful mental skills, and his intense sense of nostalgia(seriously, the first thing he does when he really get the spotlight is throw a powerful "things were better in the old days" sending at the entire tribe) is not a good example of the ability to follow the spirit of said religion. In fact, the great tragedy of his character might be seen as his inability to attain the now of wolf thought, as seen by his intense nostalgia, and his deeply held trauma(as referenced in his brief conversation with Moonshade re: his association of the Palace with Blue Mountain). In this light, Strongbow, with his mental abilities that even his enemy compared to that of the High Ones, and his conservative, past-biased belief system, would seem to have LESS wolfblood than Wolfriders like Pike, or Treestump.

And the next person who talks about living in the moment as primitive is going to get the full force of my lifetimes worth experience of living with people who, for varying reasons, do live in the moment. It's not always a bad or good thing. It just is, and it frees as much as it constrains.

Make the Wolfriders Great Again!

How different is Strongbow's nostalgic insistence that life was better when Wolfriders were an isolated tribe who kept to their traditions and Way from Rayek's belief that the elves were better off as pure High Ones-- to the point of being willing to obliterate all non-High Ones just to save the original "true" elves? I mean... There's the extent to which they were willing to and capable of doing anything about it-- but isn't, in essence, the sentiment the same?

When you think about it, Strongbow's insistence on living in The Now should mean that he'd actually have preferred if Moonshade had just gone and had her wolfblood removed the second she first thought about it. After all; thinking about something for (at least) ten years isn't exactly living in The Now is it?

kathleen3.0 wrote:

actually Strongbow, whose two first character defining moments include his powerful mental skills

The part in Blue Mountain is his first defining moments?

I think his defining moments came early-- like when he told Cutter to "just take her, and to the human's cook fires with what she wants" (or something) or when he implied Bearclaw was a better chief and they fought over the humans at Sorrow's End.

Lunakat wrote:

I think his defining moments came early-- like when he told Cutter to "just take her, and to the  human's cook fires with what she wants" (or something) or when he implied Bearclaw was a better chief and they fought over the humans at Sorrow's End.

Yeah that was my thinking too.

Warning; going deep into headcanon and psychological analyses and speculations here: I definitively think there's something weird about Strongbow in many ways,.
And tbh, sometimes I've been getting the vibe that maybe the lad doth protest too much, with all his mental capabilities and his crazy nostalgia. And Winnowill suspecting he had magic to challenge the high ones? I can't help but wonder that maybe it wasn't just cruelty and revenge that made her torture him back then. She wanted control of elves with magic after all, I would've loved to see the initial meeting between those two. (And how likely is it that that bird just happened to be there anyway? But that's a whole nother theory which includes Leetah, Redlance and definitively Suntop)

The elves who cannot shut up about the way are also usually the ones who are starting to move away from it. See especially Cutter, but also Ember right now, and even Sunstream before he took that final step to unite the elves. And I guess moonshade too...

I keep going back to the Dream. Moonshade and Strongbows wolf and elf-self is so clearly separated. It totally reflects my view of them. Like, with the other wolfriders just seem so at peace with who they are, elf and wolf is one. But Moonshade and her artistic side and flowery face, and strongbow with his magic and height, and both of their tendency to aggrevate, they seem like there's just such a conflict going on inside them. In one way I'm very glad Moonshade is getting over that conflict, but I really wish I could be more invested in it and part of her journey...

I dunno tho. All I can do is repeat that I think/hope there's alot more secrets that's going to be revealed that's going to explain this story. It just feels to me like they're holding back the real emotional impact right now and just waiting for the other show to drop, and it's keeping alot of us from being too invested.

Gee-- I hope so! That's an interesting way of looking at it

Lunakat wrote:

I think his defining moments came early-- like when he told Cutter to "just take her, and to the  human's cook fires with what she wants" (or something) or when he implied Bearclaw was a better chief and they fought over the humans at Sorrow's End.

While they give insight into who he is(basically kind a jerk, and also a reactionary) I wouldn't say they define him as a character, so much as a jerk and reactionary. We don't really know WHY he says that thing about Leetah(there's no justifying it, anyhow) and he acts more as a proxy for the readers than anything else during the challenge. We don't really get much insight into his motivations until we get into his head, and see that he's desperately homesick for a place and a time he can't go back to.

I got immediately that Strongbow and Moonshade represented conservative viewpoints-- they were attached to the way things were, they believed in the Wolfriders code of living and didn't adapt to adopt outside values. They were traditionalists. They represented adherence to tradition. That was apparent by the time the quest got underway. Strongbow romanticized the past-- but I wouldn't say he was simply a jerk and a reactionary. He was a specific type of viewpoint, personified, walking and talking.

FWIW, I take a lot of the characterizations and story elements of "Fire and Flight" with a hefty grain of salt. I think it's really obvious that W&R were still working out the world-building in that arc, from the nature of recognition to the characterization of most of the secondary characters. Cutter, Leetah, and Skywise are pretty consistent with their characters going forward in the series--which makes sense since they're front-and-center (they were also probably the first characters W&R imagined when coming up with Elfquest).

I think the first glimpse we get of Strongbow as a full-fledged character only comes when the humans arrive at Sorrow's End and he challenges Cutter. He's the beta wolf of the tribe, always nipping at Cutter's heels. This is consistent even into Hidden Years with the Lashpaw story.

Lunakat wrote:

I got immediately that Strongbow and Moonshade represented conservative viewpoints-- they were attached to the way things were, they believed in the Wolfriders code of living and didn't adapt to adopt outside values. They were traditionalists. They represented adherence to tradition. That was apparent by the time the quest got underway. Strongbow romanticized the past-- but I wouldn't say he was simply a jerk and a reactionary. He was a specific type of viewpoint, personified, walking and talking.

I agree with all this, although I think most of the elders occupied a similar position in Fire & Flight. Clearbrook and Treestump lead the reminiscing during the howl in Fire and Flight. The two of them, as well as One-Eye, Strongbow, and Moonshade are highlighted as not feeling at-home in Sorrows End as early as issue 5 of Fire & Flight.

Strongbow's opinion that Cutter should just "take" Leetah was repugnant, but I think it also reflects the ambiguity in the nature of recognition at that early stage of the story. I'm not sure W&R really had it nailed down themselves at that point, and so I think they had Strongbow say something that was out-of-character for him as an individual and also as an elf (I really can't see any of the Wolfriders condoning, or even contemplating, the concept of rape). For the sake of the story, there had to be some barrier to Leetah and Cutter consummating their recognition. What we got was a vague notion that the Sunfolk had rituals and customs around mating that really don't make sense in light of what we come to understand of the elves later. Why would "suitors" ever "duel" for a "maiden"? The Sun Village isn't patriarchal. Women aren't chattel to be traded among men. The Sun Villagers aren't even monogamous. There's nothing to prevent lovers from sharing. The entire trial of head hand and heart is an anachronism lifted from some other sword-and-sorcery fantasy. I hand-wave a lot of what's said and done in the first 6 issues.

(As an aside, this is why I was so surprised that Ember's ability to "turn off" recognition was linked to Leetah's denial of recognition in Fire & Flight. I'd sort of discounted that earliest depiction of recognition, or at least put it in its own category. So I was shocked to see it dredged up again. )

Likewise, Moonshade is a relatively unknown quantity in Fire and Flight. She doesn't have too many lines. She's one of the wolfriders who doesn't take naturally to the Village. She participates in the zwoot hunt. She's pretty much a nonentity. Once you get into the Forbidden Grove arc, things are a lot more thought out--including background characters like Strongbow and Moonshade. From that point on, their characters are extremely consistent, a portrait of a conservative worldview.

I've referred to Moonshade as "elf Tammy Wynette" myself, but I think that's an oversimplification of her character. Moonshade explains it herself when she criticizes Leetah for not going with Cutter. The Way means that lifemates are a unit, facing the world as a united front. That doesn't mean there can't be any disagreement between them, just that it should be resolved privately. That's exactly what Moonshade does when she follows Strongbow out of Blue Mountain, or when she cautions him against going after Lashpaw in Hidden Years. I think we see Joyleaf and Bearclaw operating in the same way for the most part (perhaps that's why it was such a shock when Bearclaw struck her--for some reason, the tribe didn't seem too disturbed by his violent behavior up to that point; likewise, it was a shock to Strongbow when Joyleaf got physical with Bearclaw.)

I think that that early gross comment is also probably is more about characterization of Cutter rather than Strongbow. I mean ,Cutter basically abducted Leetah and is now pining over a her and she doesn't want him and we're supposed to feel sympathy for him? Strongbows comment was meant to show us that Cutter was being a gentleman despite the fact that his actions really paint him as a bit of a self entitled creep.

I think Leetahs ability to resist was fully about her capabilities as healer btw. That's an element that makes for exception even if the rules probably have changed from that early version recognition. I'm willing to accept element, her refusal being possible, even if I agree that early version recognition is poorly thought through. At least they fixed the "meant to be lifemates" with Dewshine and Tyldak.

Namuhna wrote:

I think that that early gross comment is also probably is more about characterization of Cutter rather than Strongbow. I mean ,Cutter basically abducted Leetah and is now pining over a her and she doesn't want him and we're supposed to feel sympathy for him? Strongbows comment was meant to show us that Cutter was being a gentleman despite the fact that his actions really paint him as a bit of a self entitled creep.

That's a really good point.

Quote :

I think Leetahs ability to resist was fully about her capabilities as healer btw. That's an element that makes for exception even if the rules probably have changed from that early version recognition. I'm willing to accept element, her refusal being possible, even if I agree that early version recognition is poorly thought through. At least they fixed the "meant to be lifemates" with Dewshine and Tyldak.

Oh, I totally agree that it hinges on Leetah being a healer, even if there's maybe a teeny bit of retconning going on. Initially, the reproductive imperative of recognition was secondary to a "destined soulmates" element, like you say. Cutter and his two handfuls of water is about something much more permanent than a one-off sexual encounter.

I'm glad the Pinis eventually focused in on recognition being all about sex and not necessarily about the relationship between the elves involved at all. I think that was a smart development because it led to a lot of interesting wrinkles in the later stories--Dewshine and Tyldak like you mentioned, even the Go-Backs as a tribe without recognition.

What bothers me about Ember "turning off" recognition is that she explicitly did not attract any magic in utero. She "called the wolfblood" to her, and her talents (leadership, hunting, wolfbonding etc.) are non-magical. I liked that characterization of the twins, that neither was valued more or less--by their parents, their people, or each other--even though they manifested completely different gifts. I would have been perfectly happy with her using her enormous stubbornness and willpower to tamp down the effects of recognition right up until rescue. The only reason she shut out Teir is so that he would freak out and fall into a river. It didn't make sense for her character and it didn't make him look too great either.