Final Quest #14

EDIT:
I apoligise if my posts appear puzzling or seem obsolete here.  I havn't realized the long onging discussion when I wrote my first post of the day. That one and this reply took me so long to write that there were even more posts and discussions about this point.

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him. Also- she does send to him and ask him to try to experience what she has experienced. He says no. I also didn't think that she changed herself right away. She spent the time with him-- but changes afterward. Was that even the same season?

I don't talk about her wish, don't talk about her decision in general. That's LONG build up for both of them.
And as far as I get it each of them hoped the other one will ... sooner or later ... finally ... change minds. Strongbow hoped Moonshade will return to The Way and their life in the forest. Moonshade hoped Strongbow will basically leave The Way and share her life in the Palace. They talked, yes. He knew about her wish - and she about his rejection. I get it.
The idea was not new - but either one hoped the other one would give in finally. That's the status quo I got.

It's the moment and the way she finally executed her decision that I don't get - that puts me off.

Moonshade returns to him in leather duds, told him she wants to spend a whole season with him in the forest. She lifts his hopes that she might return to their former life.
This is what I get from that scene.

Moments later (a page in the comic and a night in the story?) she has her wolfblood removed by Leetah ... and Strongbow's reaction is not like he had expected it. Not like she has told him off-screen: "It's the moment. I'll do it now."

That's why it feels like a betrayal for me. Feeding hopes on the one side - and taking exactly the other turm without explicitly telling him. This execution was sudden. Badly timed ... and poorly communicated.


Hm... I could suppose that she worried about his reaction - and decided to create facts and then hope he would accept because he loves her. Kind of an out-of-character, almost cowardly move on Moonshade's side.

I could suppose that she told him what she is determined to do tonight. I could have told her that in this case she's dead for him. I could suppose that the did it nevertheless (of course, because it is her honest wish and her decision) and returned to him hoping that he will cange his mind.

I could suppose ... that's exactly my porblem. Ican invent scenes happening off-screen ... I'm a master of it. But this is such a central theme - it shouldn't be necessary to suppose.

*shrug* ... or I get this whole story arc wrong. Or a big secret will be reveals somewhen later and everything will be understandable. Or I simply missed som MAJOR part. Or poor storytelling. Or I  understand it totally wrong.
It's just a comic after all ... I CAN shrug it off.

I have to wonder if Moonshade's would ever have been 'properly timed', if Strongbow forgetting 'it' is an actual thing.

KR Wordgazer wrote:

I, too, wish one or more scenes between them before she took this action had been explicitly shown. But remember that Strongbow had accepted Moonshade living in the Palace (though he missed her and was lonely), had accepted her change in clothing (which can only mean she had also stopped tanning leather), and had accepted her flying away without him-- because that was what she needed to do. He has not been totally unsupportive up till now.

I suspect that in that offstage scene, he asked her not to lose her wolfblood, begged her not to, and hoped against hope she wouldn't, because to him, that was the one thing he couldn't take. Like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof, who bent tradition again and again for his daughters, until he came up against one tradition he couldn't bend, because it was foundational and essential to his religious understanding of his world.

"On the other hand... NO! There IS no other hand!" -- because the "other hand" means leaving Judaism/the Way and all it means to them, as they know it.

That's where both Tevye and Strongbow have ended up. We can think they're wrong, but to write them off as merely "in denial" or "stubborn" is to misunderstand them completely.

Yes, so Moonshade and Strongbow are two of my favourites (as used to be Rayek) which is possibly why I am so hoping that somethings going to be revealed so it all makes sense. Moonshade changed just because sometimes people do and Strongbow is being wrong and stubborn just isn't good enough. And I just can't make myself accept headcanons just yet, (unless its about Ember that one just seems obvious to me) I need the full story before I can judge them, and I need the full story before I can feel for them too.

I'm also abit confused about where this idea that Moonshade has sacrifised much for Strongbow comes from... especially since I kinda thought so too myself until I had my recent readthrough and realized Moonshade is a LOT tougher than I remember. There's only two instances where she doesn't speak her mind; Blue Mountain and separating to go with Ember's tribe. Other than that she's usually the one who talks first and not always for both of them in confrontations. I also notice some background things, like how she shushes Shunas crying? We're all a little bit fooled by that flowery face I think.

Yes, I think Moonshade has always been tough as nails. She's hard. To everyone but Strongbow.

I just went and reread the sequence. I think you guys are rushing the timeline-- because it happens within a couple issues... but a lot of time is actually passing. The Palace was sitting at Blue Mountain for ten years. She appears to have been living there basically during that time, with occasional visits, courtesy of Skywise. Skywise, meanwhile, is living at the Holt. But he can't stand being away from Timmain. He goes back, during that time, to fetch Moonshade, who agrees to stay with Strongbow "for a season" and comes dressed in her leathers. And he moons about Timmain to Cutter. Then, presumably some time passes... because the next thing that happens is the gathering of chiefs-- and it's during that celebration that Moonshade gives up her wolfblood.

A certain amount of time has to have passed- months at least... because the Djun was shown setting sail in his ships and dying right around the time that Moonshade rejoins the Holt... but his ships arrive at the Wavedancer's cove right after Cutter runs away. It wasn't just a day or two. It's a time-passing montage of events. It's definitely been a season or so.

I think that could have been made a lot clearer. It's confusing because it's kind of subtle. And I totally agree that this whole thing isn't as well developed as Cutter and Skywise's conflict. That was intrinsic to their characters. Moonshade is pulling a 180-- it's sudden in the overall history of the Elfquest comic series-- though not, I would argue, in the course of FutureQuest. But it really could have been fleshed out more. It does feel a bit forced.

Although.. I did really relate to her conversation with Chitter in the Prequel. Right before Ruffel dies. That felt very real to me.

It's funny, isn't it-- with all this talk about change and Strongbow and Moonshade...

The very last panel has Cutter unconscious in the forest-- and the creepy tree elves crawling toward him. They are calling him "the pesty, four limbed shape that eats fresh kill and cannot change... that will not change... will not learn how." And then they conclude "We will change it."

Lunakat wrote:

Yes, I think Moonshade has always been tough as nails. She's hard. To everyone but Strongbow.

I just went and reread the sequence. I think you guys are rushing the timeline-- because it happens within a couple issues... but a lot of time is actually passing. The Palace was sitting at Blue Mountain for ten years. She appears to have been living there basically during that time, with occasional visits, courtesy of Skywise. Skywise, meanwhile, is living at the Holt. But he can't stand being away from Timmain. He goes back, during that time, to fetch Moonshade, who agrees to stay with Strongbow "for a season" and comes dressed in her leathers. And he moons about Timmain to Cutter. Then, presumably some time passes... because the next thing that happens is the gathering of chiefs-- and it's during that celebration that Moonshade gives up her wolfblood.

A certain amount of time has to have passed- months at least... because the Djun was shown setting sail in his ships and dying right around the time that Moonshade rejoins the Holt... but his ships arrive at the Wavedancer's cove right after Cutter runs away. It wasn't just a day or two. It's a time-passing montage of events. It's definitely been a season or so.

I think that could have been made a lot clearer. It's confusing because it's kind of subtle. And I totally agree that this whole thing isn't as well developed as Cutter and Skywise's conflict. That was intrinsic to their characters. Moonshade is pulling a 180-- it's sudden in the overall history of the Elfquest comic series-- though not, I would argue, in the course of FutureQuest. But it really could have been fleshed out more. It does feel a bit forced.

Although.. I did really relate to her conversation with Chitter in the Prequel. Right before Ruffel dies. That felt very real to me.

Well I guess when there's a big change you need either to show large amount of time or large amount of cause. For Moonshade they show just very tiny amounts of both, in a very vague way.

I also felt for Moonshade when she talked to Freetouch, but again tho, it seems more like defeat rather than interest that makes her go to the palace. Like medication for depression, it's necessary sometimes, and it really helps, but really it's not something anyone WANTS to do unless there's depression involved. She doesn't seek toward something, she seeks away from something.

Come to think of it, aside from Rayek and Skywise, nobodys really shown that much actual enthusiasm about the Palace. They just smile and clasp their hands when they see it and then kinda turn into complacent zombies.... Even Ruffel seemed much MUCH happier dancing in the flowers, and the sunfolk used to have great big noisy parties... Living safe forever really doesn't seem like living at all...

KR Wordgazer wrote:

I think you're right when it comes to Moonshade but oversimplifying this when it comes to Strongbow. He calls Moonshade his "sole desire" or whatever it is he calls her-- but he's deceiving himself there. What he desires most of all is the Way. The Way is how he understands his universe. The way is how he makes sense of his own existence. In short, I think the Way is Strongbow's religion, and that the only way to make sense of the way he's acting is to consider it in terms of religion.

Wonderfully put. This is exactly how I read their relationship as well. I would only add that I think Moonshade, as his lifemate, is a part of "living the Way" for Strongbow, just like "traditional marriage" is a part of many Christians' practice of their religion. Cleaving to his lifemate (and having her cleave to him) is Strongbow's sole desire in that sense, because it is part of his understanding of the Way. It has to do with her individually, but also with the lifestyle to which he's devoted his life. I do think Strongbow has been as flexible as he can be within the confines of his "faith." He just didn't want Moonshade to go where he knew he could not follow, but Moonshade had to pursue her calling. I can't blame her for changing.

Lunakat hit the nail on the head a few pages back. This was a common tale during the days of "women's liberation"--housewives realizing there was more to the world than child-rearing and three square meals on the table and endless housework. I think Wendy, given her age, is explicitly alluding to that time. It's pretty neat to see, however I find what women were moving towards in the '70s more comprehensible than what Moonshade finds in the palace. Newly liberated feminists were moving towards life--risk, reward, engagement in the world. Moonshade, to my mind, is retiring from life, and judging by her physical appearance on the cover of #15, erasing her hundreds of years of lived experience. I don't understand that, and I can admit that I don't much like it. That's my bias. We also don't understand exactly what the elves are up to in the palace or why it's so wonderful. That's a flaw in the storytelling, but not in the fundamental dynamic of the Moonshade/Strongbow story.

Namuhna wrote:

OK, but if I accept that I don't see why they haven't just broken up years ago. So we're back to my original point, I just don't get their relationship and I don't get the draw of the palace, it just becomes a generic storyline with no heart. I need details, and preferably at least a discussion where they make their motivations absolutely clear. Strongbow needs to explain specifically what's up with his fear of the palace. And Moonshade needs to explain why on earth she needed to remove her wolfblood right now and preferably why she changed her mind in the first place. All that you said sounds absolutely reasonable, but it really isn't shown well and clearly enough for good dramatic effect. Unless they're keeping it secret for some big reveal.

I think it's been quite clear what's going on. Sometimes subtext can be a loud as a bomb. It's in Moonshade's expression when she sees Shuna giving birth, when Ruffel was struck by lightning, when Chitter sat on the baby bird and killed it. It's in all her interactions with Strongbow, and the look of peace and curiosity on her face in the palace (when Wendy actually bothers to redraw her face, that is.) I think it would have been worse storytelling for Moonshade and Strongbow to baldly state their feelings and thoughts--like Star Wars prequel-level dialogue. ("I feel angry. I feel sad.") Their relationship is in an interesting place right now, and I can relate to them more than ever before. I myself have made big changes in my life, geographic relocations and major career switches, and I had to weather those with my husband. I needed him to understand why I wasn't happy pursuing the career I trained so many years to do. It was a period of radical change in my life, which meant it was a period radical change in his life too, even though it wasn't by his choice. Fortunately, he was on-board with my decisions....nervous, confused, but on-board. But he's not quite as rigid and inflexible as Strongbow.

Strongbow and Moonshade's dreamtime story highlighted that, second only to Cutter and Leetah, they were the "soulmates" of the wolfriders (or have been up to this point). Treestump and Clearbrook never recognized. Nightfall and Redlance chose one another, which is why I find their relationship so beautiful and relatable. But of all the original Wolfriders whom we know well, Moonshade and Strongbow were two-halves-of-a-whole, complements, absolute partners. I always see that panel of them from during the troll war (http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ18&p=3), when the narration says that "to be relied on is all they ever wished," or their gorgeous full-page "spiritual portrait" from dreamtime, or the way they look at each other with complete complicity in the Hidden Years story about Lashpaw. This is why they didn't just go their separate ways at the first sign of trouble. They've grown in and around each other.

Wisp wrote:

Wonderfully put.  This is exactly how I read their relationship as well.  I would only add that I think Moonshade, as his lifemate, is a part of "living the Way" for Strongbow, just like "traditional marriage" is a part of many Christians' practice of their religion.  Cleaving to his lifemate (and having her cleave to him) is Strongbow's sole desire in that sense, because it is part of his understanding of the Way.  It has to do with her individually, but also with the lifestyle to which he's devoted his life.  I do think Strongbow has been as flexible as he can be within the confines of his "faith."  He just didn't want Moonshade to go where he knew he could not follow, but Moonshade had to pursue her calling.  I can't blame her for changing.

[SNIP]

Strongbow and Moonshade's dreamtime story highlighted that, second only to Cutter and Leetah, they were the "soulmates" of the wolfriders (or have been up to this point).  Treestump and Clearbrook never recognized.  Nightfall and Redlance chose one another, which is why I find their relationship so beautiful and relatable.  But of all the original Wolfriders whom we know well, Moonshade and Strongbow were two-halves-of-a-whole, complements, absolute partners.  I always see that panel of them from during the troll war (http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ18&p=3), when the narration says that "to be relied on is all they ever wished," or their gorgeous full-page "spiritual portrait" from dreamtime, or the way they look at each other with complete complicity in the Hidden Years story about Lashpaw.  This is why they didn't just go their separate ways at the first sign of trouble.  They've grown in and around each other.    

This this this this this. You just beautifully captured what I see with them, both before and after the schism.

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him.

Maybe the way/wolfblood/whatever just keeps deleting the whole 'Moonshade wants more out of life'- thing from his head every single time he wakes up.
I mean, he's wolfrider. He forgets.

But, yeah. I agree with you. It shouldn't sudden for him. No pity here.

That kinda reminds me of how Dart in issue 6 had to point out that it was not sudden when him and Freetouch decided to go off an join Ember's tribe.
Wonder just how long they'd been talking about it...

I think the evolution of the trouble between Moonshade and Strongbow went on something like this:

During the birth of Shukopek something was clearly troubling Moonshade, but she kept quiet, maybe because she didn't want to ruin the general good mood of the tribe.

Then we had the 20+ years timeskip of the Special, during which she at least once - the scene with Chitter and the bird - she again showed since of something bothering.

Then Ruffel died, which seems to have been the final straw pushing her towards the Palace.

Then, according to me calculations at least 15 years passed between the end of the special and the start of issue one, during which Moonshade gradually began spending more and more time in the Palace, and less and less time in the Holt. Presumably while she constantly tried to explain to Strongbow what she was doing, and why she didn't feel so much at home in the Holt anymore.

Then during the 10 years timeskip of issue 10 she lived in the Palace, which was dressed up as Blue Mountain, but frequently went back to the Holt for visits, of which at least one was a season-long vacation.

Finally, during the Gathering of Chiefs she realised that the only way for her to stop being "split in two" was to have her wolfblood removed.


Perhaps what she needed was to stop being Strongbow's lifemate and start being Moonshade.

Oh, zwoot scat.

Weren't we just discussing how much tougher she is than we give her credit for? She never STOPPED being Moonshade. Just because someone is committed to their relationship and treats it with respect and as a worthy priority doesn't mean they've become a mindless automaton or some kind of symbiote.

Yeah, but who she felt she was changed-- and she couldn't limit herself by living according to Strongbow's needs. She had to live according to her own.

Wisp wrote:

Namuhna wrote:

OK, but if I accept that I don't see why they haven't just broken up years ago. So we're back to my original point, I just don't get their relationship and I don't get the draw of the palace, it just becomes a generic storyline with no heart. I need details, and preferably at least a discussion where they make their motivations absolutely clear. Strongbow needs to explain specifically what's up with his fear of the palace. And Moonshade needs to explain why on earth she needed to remove her wolfblood right now and preferably why she changed her mind in the first place. All that you said sounds absolutely reasonable, but it really isn't shown well and clearly enough for good dramatic effect. Unless they're keeping it secret for some big reveal.

I think it's been quite clear what's going on.  Sometimes subtext can be a loud as a bomb.  It's in Moonshade's expression when she sees Shuna giving birth, when Ruffel was struck by lightning, when Chitter sat on the baby bird and killed it.  It's in all her interactions with Strongbow, and the look of peace and curiosity on her face in the palace (when Wendy actually bothers to redraw her face, that is.)  I think it would have been worse storytelling for Moonshade and Strongbow to baldly state their feelings and thoughts--like Star Wars prequel-level dialogue.  ("I feel angry.  I feel sad.")  Their relationship is in an interesting place right now, and I can relate to them more than ever before.  I myself have made big changes in my life, geographic relocations and major career switches, and I had to weather those with my husband.  I needed him to understand why I wasn't happy pursuing the career I trained so many years to do.  It was a period of radical change in my life, which meant it was a period radical change in his life too, even though it wasn't by his choice.  Fortunately, he was on-board with my decisions....nervous, confused, but on-board.  But he's not quite as rigid and inflexible as Strongbow.  

Strongbow and Moonshade's dreamtime story highlighted that, second only to Cutter and Leetah, they were the "soulmates" of the wolfriders (or have been up to this point).  Treestump and Clearbrook never recognized.  Nightfall and Redlance chose one another, which is why I find their relationship so beautiful and relatable.  But of all the original Wolfriders whom we know well, Moonshade and Strongbow were two-halves-of-a-whole, complements, absolute partners.  I always see that panel of them from during the troll war (http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ18&p=3), when the narration says that "to be relied on is all they ever wished," or their gorgeous full-page "spiritual portrait" from dreamtime, or the way they look at each other with complete complicity in the Hidden Years story about Lashpaw.  This is why they didn't just go their separate ways at the first sign of trouble.  They've grown in and around each other.    

I DO see Moonshades discontent, but I don't see her joy, neither with the Palace or really with Strongbow. They've been shown as having similar views most times, but not really complimenting eachother. And also again real life experiences as a way to explain and connect to the characters. I do not have that experience, so I need more, I need explanation, or showing. I need to see how they help and support eachother and contribute different elements of their own personality to help the other and themselves grow. I can sypathize with you, just based on that little description, but I still feel something is lacking with Strongbow and Moonshade.

So I wrote this big thing here where I basically repeated myself but looking through what I wrote there I saw that maybe my real issue with Strongbow and Moonshade really isn't this particular conflict at all, but something that might've annoyed my subconcious for years and years. Other than Leetah and Cutter where they learned to know eachother, recognition-based relationships really seems like just quiet acceptance, not real desire. Like the Palace! I mean thinking of Scouter and Tyleet as well, I don't connect with their relationship either. I think maybe I just accepted recognition as something that's a fact and so not really allowed myself to be bothered by how wrong it actually feels to me until now. Maybe I could still ignore it if Moonshade had shown this really intense desire for either the palace or for Strongbow, but now that either is just kinda blah I have to start analyzing each side in detail to try to understand her motivation for change and for sadness and I'm coming up with very very little. All I see is a couple where one is changing the other is not and the obvious solution to me is to split up and be done with it. And then you try to explain that love is difficult, but when it's so easy to leave for something as vague as the palace, how can it be? It's a circle of non-caring.

But can you imagine if Moonshade flaunted new powers in the palace? If she was shown to revel in waves of crystal and turning scrolls of fire herself and maybe floating her spirit to adventures recorded there, if she had connected to the others in the palace and we saw her laughing and dancing in waves of light... that would've proven the pull of the palace, and if she still regretted leaving Strongbow that would've proven how much she really felt for him. And I wouldn't have had to analyze either side to ruin and leave my heart behind.

(I also don't think Moonshade needs to find herself either btw. She's tough, I think even against Strongbow when it really counts. I mean Winnowill frickin tortured him. She behaved perfectly after that, proved she was with him, but then confronted him when they were alone. That's not self erasure, that's excellent psychotherapy. If only it had been shown that he appreciated that... maybe even realized he was wrong for giving her the ultimatum, and then her showing she understood his discomfort, just acknowledging how important that confrontation was to each other, it would've been the perfect for my relationship-proof)

manga wrote:

Oh, zwoot scat.

Weren't we just discussing how much tougher she is than we give her credit for?  She never STOPPED being Moonshade.  Just because someone is committed to their relationship and treats it with respect and as a worthy priority doesn't mean they've become a mindless automaton or some kind of symbiote.

Of course she was always Moonshade. It's just that for over 500 years Moonshade was very much defined as being Strongbow's lifemate, who - like him - follows the Way very strictly, and loves working with leather. Then she stopped following the Way, and stopped loving the leather-working as much. She had to find a new way to define Moonshade.

But he clearly doesn't realize he was wrong. Moonshade has been shown to be at peace and content in the Palace. She doesn't need to be shown in a state of joy.

Here's what I just stared wondering. The Moonshade that we thought we knew-- the one stood by her man (whether she agreed with him or not), the one who lectured Leetah about the proper ways to raise her kids and thought the Way was the only right way, the one who sulked when she had to take orders from Ember because Cutter (her real Chief) was still alive and she had to be away from her life mate-- maybe that's not the real Moonshade. Maybe it never was. Maybe if your opinions are scripted for you by the traditions in which you are raised, they aren't really your opinions. They are the opinions of your culture.

Redhead Ember wrote:

manga wrote:

Oh, zwoot scat.

Weren't we just discussing how much tougher she is than we give her credit for?  She never STOPPED being Moonshade.  Just because someone is committed to their relationship and treats it with respect and as a worthy priority doesn't mean they've become a mindless automaton or some kind of symbiote.

Of course she was always Moonshade. It's just that for over 500 years Moonshade was very much defined as being Strongbow's lifemate, who - like him - follows the Way very strictly, and loves working with leather. Then she stopped following the Way, and stopped loving the leather-working as much. She had to find a new way to define Moonshade.

This is a good point. The only truly defining thing about Moonshade was that she loved Strongbow and would follow him anywhere (even if she didn't want to) and she loved working with leather. Take away her love of leatherwork (which happened in the Final Quest prequel), and have her start questioning "the Way" and stepping away from Strongbow-- who is she then?

I can't find it now but someone recently (in this thread) was commenting on how much we're discussing Moonshade and Strongbow and apparently ignoring half-dead Cutter in the hands of the Fungazoids.

I'd say it's because this rift between lifemates is far more relatable and touching to us.

Also, perhaps, we believe in Cutter's plot-armor.

Or we're just so turned off by Timmain/Tam that we don't really care. Any or all of the above.

Noooo,what? Moonshade is defined as Strongbows mate?? I need a love note to Moonshade for that!

Moonshade is the quiet one, the sneaky one, who plays pranks on her tribesmates by switching their clothes. Moonshade and Strongbow rarely share, but she will join with others if they are upfront about it and don't try to change her into something she's uncomfortable with. Moonshade will give Leetah a piece of her mind. moonshade will give Ember a piece of her mind. Moonshade is the last of the tribe to teach Little Patch her tricks, while Strongbow is one of the first. Moonshade will tell Shuna to hush and will call her quest to communicate with other people madness, while Strongbow is later a part of Shunas farewell party. Moonshade will tell Chitter to be quiet while Strongbow will talk to her. Moonshade is the only one who does not celebrate the birth of Shukopek. Honestly I see Moonshade as the real stubborn one of the tribe. Even Strongbow apologizes sometimes to his tribesmates and chief, Moonshade does not.

And now she's found a new path. I can understand that, people do change. Both culture and possibilities influence us and if those changes, we can sometimes chose to change with them. I totally respect that. What I don't understand is why it's supposed to be so heartbreaking for her because I don't see how either the draw to the palace nor her bond to strongbow can be that strong!

Manga wrote:

I can't find it now but someone recently (in this thread) was commenting on how much we're discussing Moonshade and Strongbow and apparently ignoring half-dead Cutter in the hands of the Fungazoids.

I'd say it's because this rift between lifemates is far more relatable and touching to us.

Also, perhaps, we believe in Cutter's plot-armor.

Or we're just so turned off by Timmain/Tam that we don't really care. Any or all of the above.

THIS I can sign.

Additionally for me it's a reason that 9 out of 10 times the "big drama" hinted in FQ turned out to be not anywhere near the world-shattering revelations they supposed to be.
That wide open storylines like Cutter's developement proved to be able to lead EVERYWHERE ... or nowhere.

When "all rules will be broken" it's obsolete for me to guess, to worry, to speculate, to ... expect ANYthing. I just lean back and look where it will go. For me "NO One is safe - EVERYthing will change" kills curiosity and exitement. It keeps me from identifying with whoever character and makes me indifferent to whatever plot direction. Merely a passionless "scientific curiousity" stays.
That's how I react since my late teens ... if nothing is supposed to be sure, when old rules havbe no meaning anymore - I don't connect to anything.

... and that's a pity ...


EDIT: It was Lunakat commenting on Cutter's fate ...

namuhna wrote:

Moonshade is the quiet one, the sneaky one, who plays pranks on her tribesmates by switching their clothes. 

O_o

Embala wrote:

When "all rules will be broken" it's obsolete for me to guess, to worry, to speculate, to ... expect ANYthing. I just lean back and look where it will go. For me "NO One is safe - EVERYthing will change" kills curiosity and exitement for me. It keeps me from identifying with whoever character and makes me indifferent to whatever plot direction. Merely a passionless "scientific curiousity" stays.

Morbid curiosity in my case.

Embala wrote:

Manga wrote:

I can't find it now but someone recently (in this thread) was commenting on how much we're discussing Moonshade and Strongbow and apparently ignoring half-dead Cutter in the hands of the Fungazoids.

I'd say it's because this rift between lifemates is far more relatable and touching to us.

Also, perhaps, we believe in Cutter's plot-armor.

Or we're just so turned off by Timmain/Tam that we don't really care. Any or all of the above.

THIS I can sign.

Additionally for me it's a reason that 9 out of 10 times the "big dramaa" hinted in FQ turned out to be not anywhere near the world-shattering revelations they supposed to be.
That wide open storylines like Cutter's developement proved to be able to lead EVERYWHERE ... or nowhere.

When "all rules will be broken" it's obsolete for me to guess, to worry, to speculate, to ... expect ANYthing. I just lean back and look where it will go. For me "NO One is safe - EVERYthing will change" kills curiosity and exitement for me. It keeps me from identifying with whoever character and makes me indifferent to whatever plot direction. Merely a passionless "scientific curiousity" stays.
That's how I react since my late teens ... if nothing is supposed to be sure, when old rules havbe no meaning anymore - I don't connect to anything.

... and that's a pity ...


EDIT: It was Lunakat commenting on Cutter's fate ...

Yes to the scientific curiosity. That's what I originally said in my fiirst post here too. i feel like there's puzzles everywhere, and promises of big changes to come, there's no time for feeling like part of the story. But for me with Tammain, that revelation lead to me relaxing a bit and I can at least feel for Cutter when he's having his breakdown so that's a relief. But I can't really talk that much about it yet because it's just so weird and open and out there that any discussion would just lack any kind of substance. But I liked the revelation! I might change my mind about it later, but right now I'm intrigued and yet the presentation is emotional so the balance of heart and mind is definitively possible, it just hasn't happened to any of the other characters yet in my mind, so I can't feel anything for them. And that makes discussing them easier because I'm kinda cranky about it I guess...

namuhna wrote:

All I see is a couple where one is changing the other is not and the obvious solution to me is to split up and be done with it. And then you try to explain that love is difficult, but when it's so easy to leave for something as vague as the palace, how can it be? It's a circle of non-caring.

I agree with the first part of what you said.  They should split now.  They need time apart.  Our understanding of the palace is vague, but it's not vague to Moonshade.  That's a failure of the storytelling, but it doesn't mean that her feelings toward Strongbow are weak or indifferent.  It just means the story isn't giving you enough to feed your imagination.  In the end, I guess I've seen just about enough, but your mileage may differ.

shadowpath wrote:

@namuhna wrote:
   Moonshade is the quiet one, the sneaky one, who plays pranks on her tribesmates by switching their clothes.

O_o

At the beginning of Siege when they were living in the Forbidden Grove.  I love your description of Moonshade Namuhna.  I think it's spot on.  I don't think Moonshade was the lesser partner in her relationship with Strongbow.  I don't think he defined her, or that she always deferred to him.  She had a deft touch with him (effective, given his personality.)  Their values aligned for many years.  But once she moved on to the palace, she would have been living a lie, maintaining a lifestyle to placate Strongbow, if she'd stayed in the holt. That was insupportable.  And the fact that she wouldn't do it shows just how determined and steely she is on the inside.  

lunakat wrote:

Here's what I just stared wondering. The Moonshade that we thought we knew-- the one stood by her man (whether she agreed with him or not), the one who lectured Leetah about the proper ways to raise her kids and thought the Way was the only right way, the one who sulked when she had to take orders from Ember because Cutter (her real Chief) was still alive and she had to be away from her life mate-- maybe that's not the real Moonshade. Maybe it never was. Maybe if your opinions are scripted for you by the traditions in which you are raised, they aren't really your opinions. They are the opinions of your culture.

Does intrinsic personality even exist?  Perhaps it does in the most basic sense, but I tend to suspect that personality is like epigenetics--an individual may be predisposed to express certain personality traits, but the degree is determined by experience, family conditions, and cultural influences.  The "old" Moonshade could be the "real" Moonshade just as much as the new one. By the same token, there could be no "real" Moonshade, just a gestalt of potential personality expression responding to stimuli in real time.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Of course she was always Moonshade. It's just that for over 500 years Moonshade was very much defined as being Strongbow's lifemate, who - like him - follows the Way very strictly, and loves working with leather. Then she stopped following the Way, and stopped loving the leather-working as much. She had to find a new way to define Moonshade.

Exactly.

namuhna wrote:

But can you imagine if Moonshade flaunted new powers in the palace? If she was shown to revel in waves of crystal and turning scrolls of fire herself and maybe floating her spirit to adventures recorded there, if she had connected to the others in the palace and we saw her laughing and dancing in waves of light

Moonshade's never been an ecstatic individual.  She's quiet.  She used to express her moon through her tanning and clothing design work.  Remember when Nightfall remarked that "the stitching [on her new outfit] was so playful"?  Moonshade was secure and happy.  Her imagination could run wild and it found expression in her designs.  She didn't run singing and dancing through the holt!  And we did see her teaching those two go-backs in the palace, explaining what they could see in a magical vortex.  I found it boring both to think about and to look at, but apparently it does the trick for her!

What Cutter's going through is so off the map, it's difficult to speculate as to the outcome.  I'm interested and on-board for the ride.  He's stumbled into a community of elves that exist to be catalysts of change.  Cutter's been "the chief of changes" himself.  Finding new tribes of elves, fighting wars against new foes--those were all external changes.  The revelation that he and Timmain share a single "soul"....that's as internal as it gets, and it's the most difficult change he's had to make.  The hardest thing to face or to change is our conception of ourselves.  We operate on the assumption that we are discrete, defined individuals.  Cutter is in fundamental ontological crisis.  

The fungus elves are also non-individuals....like Cutter.  They don't identify with their bodies.  They don't even identify as discrete entities.  Presumably, Cutter can learn from their example.  Maybe they'll give him the tools he needs to cope.  Maybe they'll serve as an external challenge through which he can grapple with his internal drama.  That's the best I can speculate when it comes to Cutter's storyline.  Others have wondered whether he'll merge with Timmain, and if so, which "body" will survive and which will perish.  All good food for thought.

Yeah, you're right, I know she's not the extravert at all... probably horrible ooc, it was more of a thought experiment because I really need something to work with. Like you said, fault in the story telling not feeding my imagination... (or partly holding back vital information for another big revelation but still, not good)

And oh, yeah those fungi ARE non-individuals! Now I got a ittle bit inspired again!
So they've got this weird ironic thing going on, like Cutters quest was uniting the elves and now he's REALLY united. Careful what you wish for?
And now he meets elves that are united physically and mentally, and they're ready to make both him and Timmain change? Maybe become part of themselves? ... gosh, that could really have some catastrophic effect on everything if the last remaining high one suddenly loses herself. She's so tuned to the palace, maybe there'll be a domino effect where it all just collapses, palace and all those connected to it because the hivemind just takes over.
Probably not tho, because Cutter is superspecial and all  

I just have this image of the search party finally reaching the Fungus Elves' dell...only to find Cutter in a semi-assimilated state, morphed into part plant form or something. It would be the closing image of the issue, like that classic Star Trek the Next Generation episode, "Best of Both Worlds," when the last shot of the cliffhanger is beloved Captain Picard assimilated as a Borg. If Wendy doesn't go for something like this, I'll eat my hat, lol!