Bad Moments from Favourite Characters

So warming up a cooling thread, wahoo. I feel the urge to protect someone special... hehe, and besides, I once wrote that I might show up, depending on real life stress level and on possible mention of certain keywords.
I tried to follow the thread as good as possible and saw the various positions from which other people see certain actions. And I'll just mainly add mine, or emphasize said things.


There are some generic bad moments of characters - but these are not my favourite characters (second favourite maybe), so it doesn't count.
It's hard to say something negative about my favourite character, of course. I mean, he had some rough edges here and there, but on one hand this also defined him, gave him a remarkable profile and on the other he had a lot of character development.

manga wrote:

Rayek's worst moment is kinda screamingly obvious, so I won't mention it.

Not obvious for me. Some people might say it is part X of the story, others would mention part Y. He made not only one mistake when he was striving for the greater goal with overdetermination and even recklessness. Or when was rendered really angry.
But then it was not bad intention per se.

generic discussion wrote:

Rayek "raping" Leetah

Not happened. Not intended. Of course the topic "rape" or "abuse" is to be handled with caution. There can be multiple forms of it. Some also very hidden.
But I don't think there was any rape or intended rape. No.
Fiercekly wishing for recognition, yes.

And in that regard Leetah was also abusing Rayek. Or, as mentioned here and to wrap it in more positive terms, it was a somewhat "immature" relationship.
HY9 and 9,5 shed some light on that and are my favourite HY issues.

Leetah had him on the leash, knowing very well that he was dedicated to her (making first mental contact even before she was born, healing of the scratch). She knew and used - with conscience or unconsciously - that she was about the only match for Rayek. Finally he would feel some resonance, an echo, someone who would understand. But she was a bit borderline-style keeping him on the leash pulling him back, showing just enough of the holy grail to keep him interested and "hunting". And telling him what an old gloomer he would be; when he was serious about things (he was a couple of years older than her). She didn't want to settle herself in terms of lifemateship; but as others said here, it would probably have been better to communicate that to Rayek. I guess that is a human (sic!) feature: Often we need some time to become aware of our own necessities, to realize our own feelings and put them into rational thoughts.
If we are e.g. in a bad relationship; it might take us some time to realize that it was better to end it. We cling to hopes of good old times, "if it was just as in the beginning" and so on.
So maybe it was similar with her. Still, she "played games" with him for many, many years. But maybe, she just wasn't really aware of what she wanted. Or it was one of these "games" girls sometimes tend to play on the boys.

Besides that, it was metaplot. Cause she knew that Richard and Wendy had planned to sell^H^H^H^H marry her to Cutter. :p


Yes, he was very eager, determined and sometimes close to reckless. But that inherited for a good part from the way he was "raised" in the village. It seems to me he always had to fight, to bring sacrifices and be absolutely outstanding to receive affection and love. So he kept chasing what he could not reach, but never was aware of the latter; cause she always had that tiny window of hope open for him.

Maybe she even felt nice and well to be courted like this. I guess that is not an uncommon feature to a lot of people!
But thus also resulting in playing these games, "keeping the stoves warm", "having multiple pots on the fire". Gaining affection from multiple people, always keeping them warm, just in case. That might be a projection of human behaviour, maybe even something WaRP experienced or lived for themselves into it.


Finally recognition ripped her out of his life, finally, after all that time. Some strange villain from the woods, that came to the village like a robber, abducted her (somebody please start talking about kinds of rape here?!) against her will and all the incidents that followed.
It probably takes some time if you are the one being pushed away to completely forget about the love of your life (or what you thought to be the love of your life). Especially when all this courting before has lasted for such a long time.
(see also http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=HY/HY09&p=24 lower right, "follow her with hand outstretched...")

He may have been very set and determined to the point wearing blinders and not seeing any left or right from the path currently taken. But then, he probably did not perceive any alternatives to her at that point.

Lunakat wrote:

come on- it's 600 years in a small town! Can you really imagine spending all that time dating just one guy? I can't!

Who knows...
If you have a really good match with your partner, ... though 600 years are above our human brains and vision.

Zadzi wrote:

The only magical ones in it were Savah (mentor) and Suntoucher (Leetah's Dad lol), then Leetah and Rayek.

Um, wasn't Ahdri supposed to be a scholar of Savah, too? Didn't Rayek "chase" her in the early days before Leetah was coming into existence?
But generelly yes, there were too little people of his "mind level" if I may call it that way.

Zadzi wrote:

There's the control thing again! Healers are such freakin' control freaks

Well, maybe in Elfquest to a certain extent. And yes, reading it with a look at that feature, it seems true. Control suggests safety, and maybe Leetah was unsure about herself, undecided, generally felt insecure - so she got more into the control thing. If we think we are in control, things can't harm us (at least we think or pretend that).

And here:
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=HY/HY09&p=15
lower right
Indeed!

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Rayek Nice Guyed Leetah

Not sure if I have a totally correct "translation" of nice-guying, but I guess I got the main part.

Um,... I don't know. Well, clearly he somehow still valued her and was still affected to her. And she still remained one of the few - in his view possible - matches for him. Look, he even went for that batshit-crazy Winnowill because he hoped for affection and some equal level in terms of magic and possibly greater views on the world.

You know, sometimes e.g. medical doctors are very often married to their own "species" - beause they understand each other, they share similar view. That doesn't have to have to do with social caste (though in the past times it also was) but with a similar "level" of mind.
Well, and as far as I see and read it, she still has a lot of positive feelings for him, too. And then, in her view, she was more receptive towards open relationships - from the early days on. So she's still waving the flag of hope for him.

So he is by far not over it, and she doesn't really help it, because she probably would be okay to have them both.

Wingthing wrote:

Yeah, if Leetah had said "Look, Rayek, I don't want to be your lifemate - I will probably never want to be your lifemate, but if you want to be non-gamous lovemates, great!" that would have been a lot different than the flirty "No means maybe" game she was playing with him.

Well, it seems you understand the language of males.
Clear statements and instructions. Yes = Yes and No = No and nothing else. No guessing and subtle hintings that the male must understand. (Not that males are always simple and easy to understand, too.)

By the way, I'd like to have a Team Rayek shirt! Wheee!

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Rayek ... he had centuries to deal with his feelings for Leetah, and to move on if he wasn't getting what he wanted out of the relationship.

I'd say no here because of "windows of hope". She always waved the flag from the distance and often retracted it when he came close. Today she's probably still waving it from behind a big wall named family with Cutter.

Quote :

And tbh, I get the feeling that if we're were dealing with a male Leetah, and a female Rayek, a lot of people here would be talking about how annoying and clingy she was being and how Leetah deserves better.

I don't know. Maybe some females would judge that way and speak of "annoying" and "clingy". I don't know.

Zadzi wrote:

Rayek ... monogamous ... sheer stubbornness after a while.

Yes on the part of stubbornness.
I don't know if he's monogamous. We just haven't seen it.
I guess it is a matter of his determination (see e.g. http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ16&p=22 middle right), his somewhat eben obsessive/compulsive way. To strive for the greatest goals. And his wish for sombody with a similar mind level, someone who would understand him. And, as mentioned above, the lack of alternatives at certain points of the story.
And with Winnowill, well, she probably kept him so busy, he have the chance to look left or right in terms of a multigamous relationship.

Manga wrote:

Like a gambling addict he kept coming back because sometimes he did "win".

In that context, yes. And success is rarely ever "start -> success". It's more a "start -> fail -> fail -> fail -> fail -> success". I guess he got that by heart and lived by it.

Manga and generic discussion wrote:

buckle outfit

Please, he does look good. Always. Regardless of any outfit.
By the way I didn't think bad of any outfit. But I am not member of the fashion police, either.
(Didn't I say that before...? https://fathertreeholt.forumotion.com/t113p30-rayek-the-wandering-rogue-s-thread )

Zadzi wrote:

Overly bright colors for some reason really offend me.

I don't know. Sometimes it could just be the print. E.g. I saw several versions of Elfquest, some Marvel (?) issues, that had different colours, some translations, some b/w and so on, and it's always a bit different. Even on computer monitors colours aren't always equal. Still, the base colour stays the same, normally.
Though sometimes some colours only can appeal to kids, when they're screaming intense (some "neon" "tones", or unhealthy colours of sweets). Or, as we say in my region, some colours can bite each other (they don't harmonize).

nobody specific wrote:

Ember

For most parts, well, she's just kind of young and still gaining experience. I am sure that includes some mistakes. But re-reading some things, yes, she could be quite a termagant (<- interesting new word I just learned).



I don't really remember a specific favourite character gone bad scene.
I know, some of Rayek's words were harsh (but others, e.g. the wolfriders among each other, do so, too). Some actions were reckless. Overreacting. But it often happened when he was striving for the greater good, but not carefully watching. A lack of experience in terms of persepctives from others; not a lack of empathy - he just didn't know, couldn't imagine. Or in situations when someone really made him angry (for good reason) or when he was overprotective (e.g. Ekuar endangered, Venka endangered).
And I guess sometimes, maybe often, he felt a fear of being recejted, a lack of recognition (both meanings) and affection - especially in the past.
I have to check the FQ issues, I get them regularly via TFAW with the overseas delay, but due to a lack of time I was mostly just flying over them. Someone posted something about him and Winnie recently though. Got to check that in detail and context. (Maybe he just got used to her?)

But let's not forget: Sometimes the creators do have... strange moments. Like giving Rayek a role as some plain kind of villain. Or that Disney-style singing and dancing all out of a sudden in a movie script.

No.. no.... no... and no. Rayek is handsome. He's got some cool attributes. But you really have to do some mental gymnastics to justify all that. The bottom line is-- no one ever thinks they are the bad guy. Of course, he didn't mean to be bad when he decided that the ends justify the means. He was just willing to do whatever he had to do and sacrifice whoever and whatever he had to sacrifice to create the world he wanted and had decided everyone deserved and would get (whether they wanted it or not). Naturally, he didn't intend to do anything wrong.

And as a side note.. sure, it's frustrating when someone flirts with you, but doesn't give you everything you want. That absolutely justifies forcing yourself on someone. Sure thing. But... let's revisit the definition of "abuse"-- okay?

I'm really into expressing myself using youtube videos.

A kiss is not a contract:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iSlPoQm2XY

Here's something they're teaching kids in schools in my country:

ANYTHING OTHER THAN A CLEAR YES IS NO.

In other words, without clear, enthusiastic consent, you don't have consent.

Yeah-- that's a pretty clear message here too.

It's not abusive to just not be as into him as he is into you. It's an incredible assumption of entitlement to assume that just because she flirts with you, she owes you sex-- or because you had casual sex, she now owes you a relationship. I think Leetah's words in Book 1 pretty much sum it up-- she felt like an object they were fighting over. But you don't ever own a person-- just because you paid in niceness for them. That's actually not being nice or a friend or love. It's being possessive:

http://mic.com/articles/115122/it-s-not-the-friend-zone-guys-it-s-you#.7BlPFbkH4

Actually the whole Trial is an example of a bad moment on the part of Rayek and Cutter. Like, a lot of emphasis is placed on the idea that Leetah could have stopped it by making a choice, but honestly? She shouldn't have had to.

Rayek and Cutter both disrespected her with that farce. Rayek should have just left well enough alone, or Cutter should have said, "What, no. She's a person, not the last piece of deer."

But how would they show everyone that the Timmain Fragment is, like, Teh Most Awesome Dude (and likely has the biggest "sword") if he couldn't go up against someone who outclasses him in almost every way?

And how do we know Leetah is worth having if they don't show that someone hot and awesome also wants her?

(Seriously, I'm torn between accepting the clichés as part of the price of an introductory book and wishing they'd gone another way.)

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Actually the whole Trial is an example of a bad moment on the part of Rayek and Cutter. Like, a lot of emphasis is placed on the idea that Leetah could have stopped it by making a choice, but honestly? She shouldn't have had to.

Rayek and Cutter both disrespected her with that farce. Rayek should have just left well enough alone, or Cutter should have said, "What, no. She's a person, not the last piece of deer."  

Well, the Trial was like an ancient Sun Village ritual. In the cultural context they were all playing their parts properly.

So... don't hate the player, hate the game?

The game that is so out of step with the rest of elfin culture I can't remember another instance of the word "courtship" or its derivatives ever being spoken by elves about elves.

I know it was referenced as being very rare thing, but still... its always struck me as very much a relic of those early days when EQ's elves were much closer to humans in terms of gender roles and sexual mores.

Actually, I'd say that the Trial itself was a bad moment. Not the specific trial between Cutter and Rayek, but the Trial as a concept.

First the "challenge words":
For the longest time I thought they meant You've recognized one of these guys, now let the Trial begin! However, upon re-reading the story recently I've come to the conclussion that what it really means is Have you recognized one of these guys, do you want the Trial to begin?
So, seems whoever came up with this assumed that if Recognition was involved, then whoever was being feuded over would just choose the recognized one, and all would be fine. No one ever imagined that someone could have recognized someone and still be unable to make a choice?

Then the choices presented:
"Yes" to one, and subsequently "no" to the other, or "no" to both.
What about "Yes" to both?
Again; seem to me that it's working from the presumption that if there's even a choice to be made, then there isn't any Recognition involved.

Finally the Trial itself:
As Kathleen pointed it, it is a farce! Not (just) because the entire idea that it could possible solve the problem is absolutely ridiculous, but because at the end of the day it really didn't matter! Much was made about the fact that whoever win, the final choice was Leetah's, she didn't choose Cutter because he won the Trial, but because she had time to think and got to know him better, including - from listening in on the Wolfsong - learning that perhaps he wasn't such a barbarian. Of course Recognition also played a part...
At the end of the day the Trial really was just an elaborate cock-fight between Cutter and Rayek.


As for why Cutter didn't object:
I suppose it's possible that he kinda wanted to, but didn't want to go against the Sunfolks' customs. He was, after all, the newcomer so he might've been thinking something along the lines of:
"I think this is pointless! But I have to accept the customs of these people."

I completely agree with all you guys.

Sun-Toucher also said Leetah was hoping Cutter would be humiliated in the Trial, and his tribe would turn on him, to make up for abducting her. Even Cutter said it after he gave New Moon to Savah: "Only you could make me do this, Leetah, but I still don't see why you must." It was only after Cutter freaked about how high the bridge was and asked "If I die for you, what would be the sense?" that Leetah felt troubled by the situation. That seemed to bother her more than Pike's statement of "It's a stupid test! I wouldn't do it for anything!"

Cutter wasn't really in the Trial to beat Rayek, I think. He went through it because he probably felt it was the best way to prove his sincerity to Leetah. Rayek went into the Trial to prove he was best again, hoping Leetah would at last choose to be his lifemate. He said that, too, at the Bridge of Destiny: "So, the fierce wolf cowers like a frightened squirrel! Look, Leetah! What do you think now of your wild barbarian suitor? Your choice of a lifemate has become easier!" And he walked across the Bridge even though the wind had picked up and Leetah asked him to be careful and come back.

After Rayek nearly fell and Cutter saved him, even though he technically had no reason to, quite a blindfold was removed from Leetah's eyes on both their characters, and perhaps her own behavior.

You know what would have been so much better - if the Trial had been a way for Cutter to prove the Wolfriders were worthy of staying in Sorrow's End - or to prove their intentions were pure or to atone for the raid on the Sun Folk, something like that. Something that the entire tribe's fate hinged on.

Because a) as we established, fighting over a woman is so last century and b) it beggared belief how easily the Sun Folk accepted the WRs. Savah, sure. But you can't tell me everyone else was that forgiving - their first ever contact with the outside world was a terrorist attack by beast-riding barbarian elves. It *should* take more than one dinner to mend fences.

Weren't the sun folk- at that point- mired in gender roles?

The Sun Folk did seem a little bit mired down in gender roles, yes. One clear example being Leetah being horrified  that Dewshine, maiden that she is, was participating in the zwoot stampede roundup. It wasn't all other females though, just Dewshine, because she was so delicate. Another example with Shenshen being appalled at Cutter wanting to be around for the birth. It wasn't like OMG we need to teach these Sun Villagers to burn their bras or whatever so much as they seemed a bit... old-fashioned. It felt more cultural as well, however.


And I agree with you, Wingthing, about the 2nd point especially. I always thought it was weird how the Wolfriders were so easily accepted by the villagers and how none of them even seemed to be on Rayek's side during the trial of hand head heart. They were all attacked by this tribe just like, what, hours ago or a day ago lol.  I mean seriously, the main hunter and protector in their tribe for countless eons leaves so easily and none of them (no non-central character) bat an eyelash or try to stop him? It just made the Sun Villagers seem disloyal to me, and self-absorbed, like they didn't care about it, as long as someone was protecting them, that's all that mattered (cue Wolfriders and Leetah leaving and only then do the villagers flip their collective lids). That actually bothered me more than the whole trial of hand head heart, because the whole thing was fantasy and cultural, but loyalty....that's not something I can really overlook.


EDIT: Which begs the question - how are these self absorbed ninnies so 'evolved' now that they are allowed to all live in the palace?

I'm kidding, of course.



..... sort of.

I'm with you, Zadzi.

I'm also a bit miffed by the way they protested at "this spindly half-grown youth will protect us?" (Dart, age 13 and raised by a whole tribe of hunters) but sat on their hands while a seven-year old Rayek reinvented hunting to feed them and stayed on their hands and left him to it even when he lost an arm at age 10.

And that little "humbling" scene recently in FQ, where Rayek ran into the parents who dropped him ( all but literally as far as we can tell since they have never been seen from that day to this, not even as background characters) when he was eleven. Grr! "They're near High Ones and I turned my back on them!" (Paraphrased.) Um, they wouldn't be near High Ones if Rayek hadn't restored the Palace that everyone else was going to leave moldering in the Frozen Mountains..They wouldn't living in the Palace if Rayek hadn't helped regain the Shards and especially if he hadn't taken Winnowill's dark spirit into himself.  His attitude could definitely use some adjusting, but that seemed simply pathetic.

THIS!

Sorry to take the attention away from Rayek and Cutter, but here's a couple others:

Venka telling Rayek about the human war-men, and then letting him go see for himself.
Sure, I know she wouldn't have forced him to stay, but she's one of the few people he'll actually listen to. If she'd gently asked him: "Do you really think that's a good idea, father?" she might very well have gotten him to stay, especially if she'd gotten Ekuar to help.
Seriously; she's supposed to be the best of her parents, but in this particular case she seemed more like the worst.
Kahvi's recklessness and perhaps tendency to not take her chieftess duties that seriously: "I'm heading Down to visit my father with these new clothes Ahnshen made for him. Oh... wait... think I'll just go and get shot!"
And a bit of Rayek's arrogance, what with seemingly thinking that "If I just go along, then everything will be fine!"


Moonshade's behaviour towards Strongbow (and herself).
Lots have been made about the fact that Strongbow is being unfair towards Moonshade, and he is, but she's also being unfair, just in the reverse. While he's been going "I'm not ready to change, so neither should you!" she's been going "I have changed, so you should too!"
Right back from her "I wish they no longer fed you." comment in issue 1. Uhm... did you just telling him to stop being himself? Then, later on, when she basically told him; "I know you don't like the Palace, but please go live there with me."
The worst part is that not only did it hurt him, it hurt her as well! She was anguishing over her desire to become immortal for years! Ten years from when we first saw her think about it, and who knows how long she'd been thinking about it beforehand?

manga wrote:

I'm with you, Zadzi.

I'm also a bit miffed by the way they protested at "this spindly half-grown youth will protect us?" (Dart, age 13 and raised by a whole tribe of hunters) but sat on their hands while a seven-year old Rayek reinvented hunting to feed them and stayed on their hands and left him to it even when he lost an arm at age 10.

It's because the backstory was concocted years later? Either this or it's because elves have the memory capacity of goldfish.

manga wrote:

And that little "humbling" scene recently in FQ, where Rayek ran into the parents who dropped him ( all but literally as far as we can tell since they have never been seen from that day to this, not even as background characters) when he was eleven. Grr!

Same thing, backstory made up ages later. However, they should have said something like: "We're really proud of you, you've done great things and we have been misunderstanding you"

Miss Gillespie wrote:

manga wrote:

And that little "humbling" scene recently in FQ, where Rayek ran into the parents who dropped him ( all but literally as far as we can tell since they have never been seen from that day to this, not even as background characters) when he was eleven. Grr!

Same thing, backstory made up ages later. However, they should have said something like: "We're really proud of you, you've done great things and we have been misunderstanding you"

That is almost exactly what I would like to have seen as well and would have made a good time for him to apologize publicly (not just in his head) for his attitude. As it is, their appearance is a let-down. Here they are finally and seeing their son for the first time in 10,000 years - the son who has, in many ways, made their current life and growth possible - and they say " Hi" and disappear again. Did Timmain call them up just to humiliate him and put him on the defensive? To guarantee he'd continue his death-grip on Winnowill? I wouldn't put it past her at this point.

Redhead Ember, great points on Venka and Moonshade. I can understand why Venka wanted to visit with Rayek but I am baffled why she'd dangle the opportunity for action in front of him like that. (I might be misrembering the scene but that's how it seemed to me.)

manga wrote:

Did Timmain call them up just to humiliate him and put him on the defensive? To guarantee he'd continue his death-grip on Winnowill? I wouldn't put it past her at this point.

Naah. I'm pretty sure they were there because they'd been catching up with their granddaughter.

They were right there at the front door of the Palace to catch up with the granddaughter who was already living there?

They were at the front door because they were catching up with her.
Also, she had only just moved in mere moments ago. The Go-Backs went up from the forge chamber to the Palace, and then the Palace went off to Blue Mountain (or rather, to "become" Blue Mountain) where they ran into Rayek and company.

Hmm, another bad moment? Nightfall trying to teach Ember swordfighting. More specifically, when she told an exhausted Ember that a troll wouldn't care less. Don't get me wrong, it was a good lesson for Ember. But Nightfall said it in the same vein that Ember shouldn't use a troll sword at all, her muscles are young and all that.

manga wrote:

They were right there at the front door of the Palace to catch up with the granddaughter who was already living there?

Maybe they came over on their own because they wanted to say hi?

I think manga's just expressing irritation with the way the entire Rayek storyline has been handled in FQ and it has indeed been shoddy. At this point they're just making it look like Rayek is regretting terrible decisions etc., and continues to make bad decisions, but it's so lame. His healing and growing up really took place post KOtBW and yet now he's been tossed aside yet again because I don't think they know what the hell to do with him (or Winnowill, for that matter). It's just lazy writing, and it gets on my nerves as well.

Maybe Rayek is continuing to make bad choices due to years of sleep deprivation.