The Final Quest

Well... now that that's been moved to a different thread...

It really seems to me like Skywise is being set up for recognition, and for separating from Cutter.
He is choosing the Palace this time- he has to because it's his purpose. He will have been living estranged from his chief and tribe for at least ten years by the time mystery girl shows up. He's going to be prepped to acquire his own life at this point.

One thing I've thought since this whole arc began. Sunstream got a name change ceremony for eliminating the bad magic pool. Very nice. Redlance got a new name for spearing a charging lion. Again- nice. One Eye got a new name for a tragic circumstance he endured- awful... but nice they did that for him.

Skywise... took the leap to become immortal, traveled (however unwillingly) through time, brought Timmain and the missing half of the Scroll to the fighting elves in Shards to help defeat Winnowil, and learned to fly the palace and to shape portions of it to jet around the world in. But he's still got the same name he was born with? I guess the old one must fit.

Also- Dart. Why is Dart still Dart? Isn't he deserving of more?

Way to be inconsistent, Cutter!

That's our Cutter. Consistently inconsistent. Must have something to do with the "unable to remember more than 3 seconds ago" thing the elves have going.

Seriously, in 10,000 years no one had discovered that it's dangerous to be out in a thunderstorm? Poor Ruffel's death would have been more poignant if they'd even been TRYING to get to safety.

Freefoot knew ...

Well apparently he forgot to pass it on.

Likely. He died. XD Killed by skyfire.

Oh. I only read a few of the BoTC novels. Must've missed that.

And now I just Picture Freefoot going:
"Oh, puckernuts! This is bad. I should warn everyone... I'm a charred mess!"

Kathleen3.0 wrote:

No, it's specifically stated in the novelization that Briersting challenging Nightrunner was part of Strongbow's impulse to butt heads with Cutter.

Soreyes wrote:

My whole problem with some of these discussions is when people bring up what was said in the Novelizations. Not saying it is wrong or taking anything away from the people who post. The thing is I think that there are a whole lot of us out here who have never seen the novels much less read them. Sometimes I just look at the post and say "Where the heck did that come from"

That's the case here Did they change the comics in the re-prints or do they still have the "mistakes"?

Hm, if children are really rare* in Sorrow's End, how come Shenshen became midwife? She's younger than Leetah (do we know by how much?). I'd imagine that a pregnant Sunvillager would rather take the great healer Leetah as midwife than her inexperienced little sister (during the first time, no one can know if she is actually a good midwife).


*What could rare mean? Like every hundred years there's a childbirth?

Yeah, that's the question isn't it? Shenshen is supposed to be three hundred at the beginning of OQ, iirc. So she's had what, three chances to that point? And given that the elves can evidently literally squirt babies out alone in the middle of the ocean, what exactly does Shenshen do? She said to Nightfall and Redlance that the Wolfriders had "given [her] far too little to do" but I haven't seen her do anything but catch, which doesn't seem like it needs much specialization.

That's right! If the Sunfolk didn't have children, aside from Leetah, Rayek and Shen Shen-- then why would Shen Shen even think of being a midwife. She's the youngest!

For her to take on the identity and role of midwife, there had to have been a number of kids born during her adult lifetime. So I don't buy that the SunFolk were stagnating. They were just living peacefully. I would buy that they didn't have many children during a time of extended drought. But they had to have been having kids. They are all the product of many generations, after all. They are all, literally, the descendents of Savah and her family. So children have to be possible in a peaceful oasis- or the story makes no sense.

You guys are right.

Besides, how crappy would it be if the only time elf societies could grow and thrive was if there was constant conflict, danger and death. Like, they can only reproduce if they are constantly at war. That sucks balls. A happy, healthy, peaceful, structured society, free from famine and disease and war, should also be able to thrive and produce children. Otherwise, what kind of dystopian universe has Wendy created?

Lunakat wrote:

Besides, how crappy would it be if the only time elf societies could grow and thrive was if there was constant conflict, danger and death. Like, they can only reproduce if they are constantly at war. That sucks balls. A happy, healthy, peaceful, structured society, free from famine and disease and war, should also be able to thrive and produce children. Otherwise, what kind of dystopian universe has Wendy created?

I don't know why ShenShen is a mid wife - but the idea of children. Could it be that it takes 200 years for them to be mature enough to even have children? There are plenty of Sunfolk in the village (I'd say there had to be 40 to 50?). So it could be that they just need to be a few hundred years old (since they have no wolf blood) to even have children. And by the looks of it, the idea of twins seemed very unusual to the Sunfolk. That'd explain the low(er) population.

A species is MORE likely to reproduce if there's enough to eat, the environment is stable, and its members are relatively mentally stable. While reproduction generally continues in spite of a lack of those factors, they play a bigger part than we tend to think. If you look the Gliders and Wolfriders, for example, mental wellness was lower during their long periods without children(all of the Gliders history, and the time on Thorny Mountain for the Wolfriders).

The Sun Folk, on the other hand, were living peacefully, in a place where they generally had plenty of food, and had a present, and mentally well leader, who ensured that their social and emotional needs were met. I would think it was far more likely that they had a steady rate of reproduction.

I also think Soreeyes has a point. I don't even have my copies of the novels, anymore. Until they're digitized or reprinted, we should probably take anything from them with a grain of salt, unless it can be coupled with something from the comics.

Tymber - most of the Recognitions we've seen contradict your idea. Cutter was, what, 23? Dewshine was about the same age. Neither Ember nor Suntop were out of their first century.

And Kathleen - YES, exactly! This "ceasing to have children when stable" thing makes no sense. I know they're alien elves but literally the only thing that makes sense of this "stop when at carrying capacity" thing is that they have self-replicating nanobots in their bodies created and programmed back when the High Ones chose to "stop breeding when we stopped dying."

(Of course, the way they're using Recognition makes even less sense. I like my original understanding of it unlocking the fertility of two elves to one another. Otherwise we have to assume that the female elf lizard-brain-thing knows exactly which sperm cell is going to impregnate the egg, because it's been otherwise shown (Rayek, Skywise and Windkin) that the elf male does not have to be Recognized to produce offspring.)

Going back to Final Quest for a moment, I have noticed this about their treatment of Recognition (plot-related Recognition - off-screens don't count for this):

1st Recognition: Two strangers (Leetah and Cutter), initially resisted then embraced. (And now the backbone of the "elfin royal family." (cue gagging sound.))
2nd Recognition: Two strangers (Dewshine and Tyldak), biological imperative fulfilled and went their separate ways.
3rd Recognition: Two mostly strangers (Tyleet and Scouter) - joyfully embraced.
4th Recognition: Two close friends but not lovemates (Brill and Sunstream) - who weren't even in their bodies at the time - joyfully embraced. (Though on a side note, I'm not sure if they're lifemates or not. I see ambiguity.)
5th Recognition: Two long-time lovemates (Ember and Teir.) - Denied and shut down.

It's kind of like the Pinis have been going through every possible iteration of how a first-time Recognition could play out. And of course once we finally get to the one where it magically happens for two people who are already in love with one another - the One True Recognition elves like Vurdah and others have been dreaming of - it's the one time they go "Eh. Nope."

6th Recognition: Two long-time lovemates (Bearclaw and Joyleaf), magically happening for two people who are already in love with one another - Cutter and blissy-bliss (for a little while).

What makes the most sense about Blue Mountain was the original premise-- that their population just reached maximum capacity for their closed in environment. And since no one was dying, and everyone who was living and could recognize probably already had-- reproduction just stopped.

I hate the idea that Winnowil masterminded their lack of babies, because it just completely undermines the point being made about them in Book 3.

Lunakat wrote:

I hate the idea that Winnowil masterminded their lack of babies, because it just completely undermines the point being made about them in Book 3.

I don't understand it this way, Lunakat. When I read the Winnowill story from the Tales of Love and Loss (EQ Vol.2) I get this:

1. The Gliders stopped to procreate - for the reason of maximum population.
2. Winnowil unwillinglyl triggered fertility (forced recognition) due to Voll's plea.
3. Afterwards she made it undone again.

Yes, Winnowill was NOT helpful to enable childbirth. Yes, she caused abortion. But she didn't cause the stop of procreation within Blue Mountain - this has happened naturally. Winnowill was just unwilling to change the status quo.

Multimedea, Bearclaw and Joyleaf don't count for my purposes as they're pre-quel material. We know how their story turns out before it even starts.

Lunakat, I don't think it was presented as Winnowill masterminding the lack of babies. Your original interpretation is still correct. All Winnowill did (if you even want to count those stories as canon - I'm rather on the fence on the matter) was deny them children outside of Recognition.

manga wrote:

All Winnowill did (if you even want to count those stories as canon - I'm rather on the fence on the matter) was deny them children outside of Recognition.

Short to the point.

You know, the funny thing is Voll wanted so much to recreate the Palace... And he did. Right down to the infertility.

manga wrote:

Tymber - most of the Recognitions we've seen contradict your idea.  Cutter was, what, 23?  Dewshine was about the same age.  Neither Ember nor Suntop were out of their first century.

Er, but both Cutter and Dewshine are Wolfriders. And Ember and Suntop (have Wolfrider blood). That's why I specifically mentioned the Sun Folk (and their lower population).

Sorry to be commenting on some of these items so late, but I just went back and read some of the last pages. I hope you don't mind me using your post, Luna, to catch up but I didn't want to try to quote the previous three or four posts before it.

Lunakat wrote:

That's right! If the Sunfolk didn't have children, aside from Leetah, Rayek and Shen Shen-- then why would Shen Shen even think of being a midwife. She's the youngest!

For her to take on the identity and role of midwife, there had to have been a number of kids born during her adult lifetime. So I don't buy that the SunFolk were stagnating. They were just living peacefully. I would buy that they didn't have many children during a time of extended drought. But they had to have been having kids. They are all the product of many generations, after all. They are all, literally, the descendents of Savah and her family. So children have to be possible in a peaceful oasis- or the story makes no sense.

You guys are right.

I'm just wondering why everyone didn't just look at the issue where the Wolfriders came to the Sun Village. There were Sun Folk in the background carrying around little kids in their arms. So, yeah, somebody was having babies recently. Dart was training some of the younger boys to use an arrow whip only a few years later

Quote :

Besides, how crappy would it be if the only time elf societies could grow and thrive was if there was constant conflict, danger and death. Like, they can only reproduce if they are constantly at war. That sucks balls. A happy, healthy, peaceful, structured society, free from famine and disease and war, should also be able to thrive and produce children. Otherwise, what kind of dystopian universe has Wendy created?

Don't take this the wrong way but, the point of producing children isn't to make us happy and self-fufilled (it's a great side effect). The point is to keep a species from extinction. And if one's species is theoretically immortal, more or less disease-resistant, doesn't really suffer debilitating mutations through inbreeding or celluar degeneration, the biological imperative for prolific breeding just isn't there.

It doen't make an elfin universe dystopian if their biology and evolutionary track is 'less kids, more time'. It just makes them different.

Multimedea wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way but, the point of producing children isn't to make us happy and self-fufilled (it's a great side effect). The point is to keep a species from extinction. And if one's species is theoretically immortal, more or less disease-resistant, doesn't really suffer debilitating mutations through inbreeding or celluar degeneration, the biological imperative for prolific breeding just isn't there.

It doen't make an elfin universe dystopian if their biology and evolutionary track is 'less kids, more time'. It just makes them different.

This.

Just my thoughts better worded than I'm able to.

I think that's projecting modern human values onto what's been presented as a biological imperative. The definition of life is survive and reproduce. If the point of recognition was family planning in the sense of making the elves' lives happier and more fulfilling, it would be voluntary, and Dewshine would never have recognized Tyldak after being abducted and enslaved. I mean... that's not the point. It doesn't even relate to the point I was making.

My point was- it is a terrible evolutionary disadvantage if the elves only reproduce during times of crisis, danger and distress. The idea that the Sun Folk would have "stagnated" simply because they were safe, happy and content is really bad.

Lunakat wrote:

I think that's projecting modern human values onto what's been presented as a biological imperative. The definition of life is survive and reproduce. If the point of recognition was family planning in the sense of making the elves' lives happier and more fulfilling, it would be voluntary, and Dewshine would never have recognized Tyldak after being abducted and enslaved. I mean... that's not the point. It doesn't even relate to the point I was making.

My point was- it is a terrible evolutionary disadvantage if the elves only reproduce during times of crisis, danger and distress. The idea that the Sun Folk would have "stagnated" simply because they were safe, happy and content is really bad.

But it's kind of how the world works. If there is no change (say no disease and what not) - something would indeed begin to stagnate. Animals and human evolve because of things in their environment - and how they adjust to it. If you have a group of people, who don't age, don't die, and have no real threats or danger to change their lives (except for the occasional eruption that made Zwoots run through your town; and your answer to that was to run and flee to safety anyway) - the only thing the Sun Folk would ever be "good" at is rebuilding.

Yes but whenever you get "ideal" conditions you get a population explosion, not a leveling off.