The Final Quest

Redhead Ember wrote:

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

But they are not taking the Palace to visit anyone.

So Suntop took the long road with all the Wolfriders and Sunfolk to consume recognition with Brill?

I meant now. As in; events after issue #9. Sunstream's and Brill's situation was pretty unique.

It's pretty clearly implied that Sunstream takes the Palace pods to visit with his family and come back. Korafey even talks to Reef about visiting the Palace.

I could understand not taking the Palace to pick elves up if the argument was "we don't really want to risk another incident like we had with Surge" because that would make sense. I don't get the feeling, after all, that Sunstream hasn't been able to tell anyone who the new elves he's talking to are, or what they think of this. They may include elves who are hostile to the idea of this alien(to them) thing intruding on them. They may be frightened.

The idea of the journey to the palace as a character building event, particularly since that "character building event" might kill several people, is nonsensical. It might make sense from an alien perspective, but from a human one, it's ludicrous.

As far as Venka's attitude towards Two Edge, we often see that attitude towards people with mental illnesses and developmental disabilities today. When my foster siblings have meltdowns, people go, "Oh, you're too big for that" because they ignorantly assume it's a regular tantrum, not the broken neurological pathways in their brain firing off over and over, creating the equivalent to a mental firecrackers. When my brother was killed, I answered "how are you today" with "I'm fine, but my brother was shot and killed" for a year. People thought I was oversharing, but I was in a state of shock and trauma, and couldn't answer the question any other way.

Also, she may have been counting on Leetah healing him, which, elves might think healers can mend all ills, but the history of healers dealing with mental illness hasn't been supersuccessful, particularly when it comes to dealing with trauma survivors.

Leetah has tried in the past to heal him, but it didn't work out so great for her. It took her and several others to heal Reef, another of Winnowill's victims, and even that clearly wasn't a complete finish.

It doesn't make her a bad person, but it does demonstrate a lack of empathy that makes her a bit more interesting to me, and a bit more like her parents. And honestly, it's not that unusual. Elves don't seem to generally have a very good understanding of mental illness.

And yes, their journey to the palace was ludicrously short(especially considering that Skywise and Cutter took several months to make that journey overland, and they were only going to Blue Mountain), but I think there was a timeskip(it's winter now, and it was autumn when they left off), and Two Edge knows all the shortcuts in the tunnels.

Jumping in headfirst here - sorry, no time to catch up on what you all have said yet:

1) What was that about "If Timmain and the Sunfolk won't forgive and try to heal Winnowill?"  Either Wendy is flipping the script, Rayek has put a weird spin on his own narrative, or Winnowill is twisting his thoughts.

2) I feel sorry for Two-Edge.  Neither the elves nor trolls seem to give a tinker's damn what happens to the poor guy.

3) It's interesting how what's going on with Moonshade and Strongbow is mirrored with Ember and Teir... only with the latter, we see Teir choosing his love over the Palace and with the former we see poor Strongbow left standing while the friend of his body and spirit walks away.

I actually think Venka really cares about what happens to Two-Edge and that she wants to help him, problem is; she just don't know how. Can't help thinking that maybe being in the ruins of Blue Mountain - and maybe speaking to Aurek - might help her understanding what he's gone through.

Wordgazer said:
Elves reaching the Palace after hardship and danger, will be ready to take the more responsible roles that living elves take with the Palace-- particularly when it leaves for the stars.

And the last 20,000 years have been all ease and roses? I think they've faced enough hardship and danger to appreciate already.

Teir is CHOOSING to stay with Ember. That's because he's fulfilled and happy there.

Moonshade is CHOOSING to go with the palace, because she's growing and changing and finding that it makes her happier to be there.

Strongbow would NOT be happy in the palace, so he's staying behind.

I'm really not happy with the implication that Moonshade should sacrifice her happiness to keep Strongbow satisfied. Yes, compromises should be made in a relationship, but you should not have to stay where you are not happy and fulfilled. It doesn't matter if you're married, or if you've been dating for a week.

And it sucks for Strongbow. I feel for the dude, but things could change. He could change. He could decide he doesn't want to stay in the holt. Moonshade might change her mind about staying in the palace. They both might meet someone new, or maybe decide to stay celibate. But either way, it's not a bad thing for Moonshade to do what she wants to do.

I'm not saying or implying that Moonshade should sacrifice with her happiness. I can sympathize with Strongbow's feelings without condemning Moonshade.

manga wrote:

I'm not saying or implying that Moonshade should sacrifice with her happiness.  I can sympathize with Strongbow's feelings without condemning Moonshade.

Yes, I do that to. My heart bleeds for him, but I love her too, and as the situation is now, no one is happy, but I can't say I have seen any signs of her giving up her happiness to keep him satisfied, more likely this will only get worse somehow...

Blackbird wrote:

manga wrote:

I'm not saying or implying that Moonshade should sacrifice with her happiness.  I can sympathize with Strongbow's feelings without condemning Moonshade.

Yes, I do that to. My heart bleeds for him, but I love her too, and as the situation is now, no one is happy, but I can't say I have seen any signs of her giving up her happiness to keep him satisfied, more likely this will only get worse somehow...

Giving up your happiness for someone else doesn't work in the long run, because one person in your life is just not enough to make up for misery every moment of every day. Neither Strongbow or Moonshade should do that for the other. Or as Jim Croce once put it so well, "I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you." But I hope that both, and their circumstances, will continue to change in ways that they might find a way to live together again.

manga wrote:

Wordgazer said:
Elves reaching the Palace after hardship and danger, will be ready to take the more responsible roles that living elves take with the Palace-- particularly when it leaves for the stars.

And the last 20,000 years have been all ease and roses?  I think they've faced enough hardship and danger to appreciate already.

I don't know. It could be that Timmain is just plain wrong this time and is allowing her ideology of "choice and chance" to warp her judgment about these particular circumstances. But I think the point that was raised about the Wavedancers was also a good one. Just having the Palace presented on a silver platter doesn't mean it's going to be welcomed or wanted.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Multi-Facets wrote:

Wait, Moonshade and Strongbow got the Wolfrider equivalent of a divorce?!

Naah. Just the Wolfrider equivalent of a long-distance relationship.

Then why's it feel like one of my ships is now sunk? (wibbles)

Why shouldn't Sunstream's (yeah, I can type his new name, it's just, old habits) sending explain the intentions and the aim of his sending at the same time? Something like "we come in peace, and we bring you home"? Apparently it's a soft warm tug hard to ignore, so at least it should feel good. But yes, it's kind of been hinted, that there are some elven-borne threats to come (and not just Winnowill). Maybe Angrif forges an alliance with one of those elves to rot out the other (just kidding)?

And what does "those who made the trip are ready to choose between TWoTM and starhome" mean for those who do or cannot to the trip? Are they left with no real choice? 'Oh, you couldn't make up your mind, so were just leaving without you'. Or what about generations born after the palace left? They have to stick with the choice their parents made?

Maybe they don't want weaklings.

Skywise needs to show some initiative, man! Recruit Pike, Yun and two or three Preservers. Ambush Savah and Timmain at tea time. Double-wrap Timmain so she can't magic her way out. Let em go after everyone's in the Palace, the Great Referendum has passed and they have a crew manifest for their whole Starquest endeavor.

Or... you know, let Savah out and "accidentally" leave Timmain on Abode. Call it a clerical error.

I left this comment on the FB page:

So the Palace could fly around at the end of Shards and pick up the Sun Folk, the elves in the Forever green and Ember's tribe, but sending out pods would be bad. The elves have had millenia of "choice and change", and Timmain's sounding like only the "right" elves should have access to Palace and be able to make the trip back to the stars. The Coneheads weren't infallible before the Shell fell, and Timman's not infallible now. Poor reasoning, poor plot point.

We'll see how long it lasts, eh?

Or Timmain is very much aware of some risks...

As much as I enjoyed the latest issue, I think the Trolls are badly under-represented. Two-Edge is half-Troll, and the rest are severely mentally disabled.

The "Dreamtime" story is the latest piece of reprint material that has been padding out the series. I recall thinking this piece ended like a suicide note. In it, Wendy Pini acknowledges both the positive and negative criticism of her fans.

My husband had an interesting perspective on Timmain's edict:

She's still wolfy in her thoughts so she's judging things AS a wolf. Strong, healthy packmates = good. Weed out the weak and unfit.

Which makes a LITTLE sense of her "hey you guys on Hearthstone had better re-invent the principles of transoceanic sailing. Or non-magically powered flight, unless you're all a tribe of Gliders" attitude.

While we're in the subject, Cutter's objection to Rayek's plan included "What about the trolls?" yet there's no talk of gathering them and giving them the same "stars or WoTM" choice. I'd say they have at least as much claim to the Palace - last remaining piece of their home world AND the place where they gained sentience - as the elves and Preservers.

So there's a possibility that Wendy is still relying on the old research(which I admit wouldn't surprise me), and Timmain is still in wolf mode, but I think it's a bit more likely she's being jackass and suffering from protagonist syndrome

I think Cutter's main thing there was that anyone left behind would have been erased from existence. Elves have never really seemed to consider the Palace as belonging in any way to the Trolls. Given the history of the Trolls, especially considering their treatment IN the Palace while it was travelling through space, I doubt they would have a great deal of attachment to it. I would like to see their point of view on the issue, though.

So I picked up my copy today at the comic shop board game night. I'm worried for Sunstream's sanity even though his training is supposed to be protecting him, and I'm howling inwardly for Moonshade and Strongbow. And I just know that Winnowill will refuse to be healed. And poor Two-Edge. And and and.

A happy, or at least satisfactory ending for elves and trolls is looking less and less likely. At least the Go-Backs seem eager for a new adventure, as well as Venka and the Sun Folk. That's something, I guess.

Maybe Timmain simply realised that the whole flying around and pick up (almost) everyone from the end of Shards was actually pretty stupid. What if Door hadn't been knocked out when they went to pick up Dart's band? Could've caused some serious trouble.
Not to mention that it was actually a pretty silly plot point, serving no real purpose other than getting everybody to where they needed to be - storywise - fast, and poor Dodia; getting picked up and then... chucked right back into the Forevergreen in all her pregnant madness.

So my thoughts...

First - Windkin. He thanks Aroree about being responsible (thankfully, in his case) for lack of wolf blood. When/how did this happen? Some insight or footnote would have been nice (like Marvel and DC tend to do marked with an asterisk and a note that says "See ElfQuest: Dreamtime #7" (or whatever)... So that way, someone can read that, go to ElfQuest.com and read it online if they wanted to. (If this happened in the Final Quest series, so far, I don't remember it...)

Argument between Timmain and Skywise - Seems very out of character or out of place. I didn't feel it. Seemed lacking. Something was off.

ShenShen - who is the human Shukopek that she goes to see? I know she got shape shifted by Leetah ... but again, a reference or not to who the frick this human is would be nice. I can't imagine any new readers to ElfQuest having a clue as to what the &$@! is going on here.

The trolls who attack Venka and the others - are these Picknose's trolls? Seem pretty blood thirsty for the pack of trolls Picknose came from (and would eventually rule over).

Two-Edge/Treestump conversation was absolutely epic. Loved that piece quite a bit. (But again, for new readers, a footnote explaining that part would have been nice if the reader wasn't familiar with the Seeker and the Sword or whatever that story was called).

Strongbow/Moonshade - I'd like to say I was heartbroken about this. But really? That was about as obvious as the sunrise. Saw that a mile away and felt like it dragged on for entirely too long. Had this been executed SOONER, I feel like it would have had more impact. But it went on and on, and I was like, "Just say it already."

Cutter/Skywise/Dreamberry scene - I liked it, but there was definitely some love missing here. I didn't feel like these two were as connected as they should be. Granted, OQ, SaBM and KotBW are the ones I have read the most frequently - and so there's a ton of ElfQuest I have not yet read, or don't have committed to memory - that may have changed the dynamic between these two (aside from Skywise giving up his wolf blood) - but that brotherly love seemed to be missing.

All of that said, I'd say this was probably one of my favorite issues of Final Quest. It seemed a lot more focused and less jumping around to a mess of tribes, trying to tell too much at once.

Tymber wrote:

First - Windkin. He thanks Aroree about being responsible (thankfully, in his case) for lack of wolf blood. When/how did this happen? Some insight or footnote would have been nice (like Marvel and DC tend to do marked with an asterisk and a note that says "See ElfQuest: Dreamtime #7" (or whatever)... So that way, someone can read that, go to ElfQuest.com and read it online if they wanted to. (If this happened in the Final Quest series, so far, I don't remember it...)

Aroree being responsible for Windkin's lack of Wolfblood happened all the way back in SaBM. Aroree kidnapping Windkin and all that.

Tymber wrote:

ShenShen - who is the human Shukopek that she goes to see? I know she got shape shifted by Leetah ... but again, a reference or not to who the frick this human is would be nice. I can't imagine any new readers to ElfQuest having a clue as to what the &$@! is going on here.

Shukopek is the son of Shuna and Ikopek/Bee. He was introduced in the Final Quest Special, so unless someone went in and started reading Final Quest from the middle they'd already know who he is.

Tymber wrote:

The trolls who attack Venka and the others - are these Picknose's trolls? Seem pretty blood thirsty for the pack of trolls Picknose came from (and would eventually rule over).

No. Picknose and his Clan are under the (ruins of) the Thorny Mountain Holt in the New Land/Djunsland, these trolls are under the (rebuild) Original Holt. They're probably descendants of the Frozen Mountain Trolls, going a bit nut.

Yeah, someone who randomly picked an issue up in their local wouldn't have a clue what was going on. They used to have reference points but they don't do that with final quest that I've seen.

Quote :

Strongbow/Moonshade - I'd like to say I was heartbroken about this. But really? That was about as obvious as the sunrise. Saw that a mile away and felt like it dragged on for entirely too long. Had this been executed SOONER, I feel like it would have had more impact. But it went on and on, and I was like, "Just say it already."

Tbh, I think that's the reason most of us are glad to see Moonshade go. Thing is, as long as the Palace is there, she and Strongbow can have this argument and he can pretend she'll come back to the woods and she can pretend he'll come to the palace with her, but a clean break would be impossible. It's a relief, because now their story can move on.

So, finally I got to read it.

'' And Sunstream will be himself again.... Or as much as he can be, now that he holds every elf in his thoughts!''
Oh, so there's a chance that Sunstream could be trapped forever in his mind or go totally mad, and never be the same again. Well, that's totally fine! Nothing scary about that! Totally healty!   I'm glad to see Skywise so concerned about him.

Speaking about Skywise. I feel really bad for him. I mean, I know where Timmain's coming from, really... but why looking so down on him with those cold looks and the big no's? After everything between those two.. She could atleast try to explain why! I'm glad Savah did so...
and now he's going to stay with Cutter for the next ten years. I should be really happy with that, I am. Then again, I really feel bad for him. Looks like he has no rol in the palace anymore..atleast for the moment, and his plans had changed now as well. What will he do now?

Love that Shenshen moment. I'm rooting for her. She will be just fine!

I could only smile at that Aroree/Windkin conversation. *Claps* Awesome Windkin. I'm pretty sure Aroree will be more at peace now.

I really loved that conversation between Two-Edge and Treestump! Finally, someone gave him a compliment about something! This felt to me like, that he was accepted and not an outsider or freak or enemy in this case! Just a little moment though, but I'm glad it happened.

but then after that happened...

Man, I feel so bad for Two-Edge! Can they not try to place themselves in his shoes for once?! My heart guys... my heart! And he was not having a childish rage Venka! He's just freaking out! You can't blame the guy...
Did Cutter... make fun of him because he was rhyming?! CUTTER!
Now something else. Venka thinking about how Two-Edge might be a good chief for those trolls? hmmmm.

Anyway! It looks like Teir and Ember will not be going with the palce!

Ten years for another war.. great.

Tymber, I have the same thoughts as you when it came about Cutter/Skywise/Dreamberry scene. For some reason they didn't seem so close like they normally do. At least that's how i feel about those two lately. Then again, it seemed how they would normally act around each other too. I don't know, i think they both know they will be separated soon.

Strongbow/Moonshade *heart sting* We all saw this one coming but my heart broke at that ending. It's really depressing, yet it's for the best.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Yeah, someone who randomly picked an issue up in their local wouldn't have a clue what was going on. They used to have reference points but they don't do that with final quest that I've seen.

And that's just lazy, I think. Especially since they offer all the issues of ElfQuest (from the older series ONLINE for free!) WHY NOT PUT EDITOR MARKS and drive people to go look at the ^$#@*&ing site and read the issues!!!

Redhead Ember wrote:

Tymber wrote:

First - Windkin. He thanks Aroree about being responsible (thankfully, in his case) for lack of wolf blood. When/how did this happen? Some insight or footnote would have been nice (like Marvel and DC tend to do marked with an asterisk and a note that says "See ElfQuest: Dreamtime #7" (or whatever)... So that way, someone can read that, go to ElfQuest.com and read it online if they wanted to. (If this happened in the Final Quest series, so far, I don't remember it...)

Aroree being responsible for Windkin's lack of Wolfblood happened all the way back in SaBM. Aroree kidnapping Windkin and all that.

I remember the abduction - but I don't remember his blood being "cured" of Wolfblood. Clearly, I need to re-read that. (Again, a reference to that with a footnote in the comic would have been greatly helpful. Lazy editors, not looking up where all these points are coming from... How do you expect new readers or even old readers, such as myself - to know or remember this stuff?) Clearly some, such as Redhead Ember, do have a far better memory than myself.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Tymber wrote:

ShenShen - who is the human Shukopek that she goes to see? I know she got shape shifted by Leetah ... but again, a reference or not to who the frick this human is would be nice. I can't imagine any new readers to ElfQuest having a clue as to what the &$@! is going on here.

Shukopek is the son of Shuna and Ikopek/Bee. He was introduced in the Final Quest Special, so unless someone went in and started reading Final Quest from the middle they'd already know who he is.

I just looked back after you mentioned it. Yeah, guess there was so much going on in the special that nothing really stuck with me. (That's been my problem with Final Quest... too much happening to keep straight... like trying to hard to cram too much too fast to make this happen).

Redhead Ember wrote:

Tymber wrote:

The trolls who attack Venka and the others - are these Picknose's trolls? Seem pretty blood thirsty for the pack of trolls Picknose came from (and would eventually rule over).

No. Picknose and his Clan are under the (ruins of) the Thorny Mountain Holt in the New Land/Djunsland, these trolls are under the (rebuild) Original Holt. They're probably descendants of the Frozen Mountain Trolls, going a bit nut.

They seemed more like the Frozen Trolls - but the distance between the original holt and where the Palace was - is pretty freaking significant... http://www.tawmis.com/eqroll/WorldofElfQuest-Large.jpg - so unless these tunnels are all over and linked together - that'd be a huge amount of distance for a scattered band of Frozen Trolls to travel...

wolfmoonsky wrote:

'' And Sunstream will be himself again.... Or as much as he can be, now that he holds every elf in his thoughts!''
Oh, so there's a chance that Sunstream could be trapped forever in his mind or go totally mad, and never be the same again. Well, that's totally fine! Nothing scary about that! Totally healty!   I'm glad to see Skywise so concerned about him.

To me, this is Wendy setting up something and being a little obvious about it.
(I think we're about to see the new Winnowill...)

wolfmoonsky wrote:

I really loved that conversation between Two-Edge and Treestump! Finally, someone gave him a compliment about something! This felt to me like, that he was accepted and not an outsider or freak or enemy in this case! Just a little moment though, but I'm glad it happened.

Same, favorite moment of the issue for me.

wolfmoonsky wrote:

Did Cutter... make fun of him because he was rhyming?! CUTTER!

Not make fun of him, really - but I think recognized that when Two-Edge was rhyming back in the Original Quest, his mind was broken... so to see him rhyming again, is a sign that his mind has snapped (or is close to it)... and that they'd be dealing with a crazy Two-Edge again.

wolfmoonsky wrote:

Tymber, I have the same thoughts as you when it came about Cutter/Skywise/Dreamberry scene. For some reason they didn't seem so close like they normally do. At least that's how i feel about those two lately. Then again, it seemed how they would normally act around each other too. I don't know, i think they both know they will be separated soon.

Yeah, I guess there'd be more... emotion?

wolfmoonsky wrote:

Strongbow/Moonshade *heart sting* We all saw this one coming but my heart broke at that ending. It's really depressing, yet it's for the best.

To me, had they done this sooner in Final Quest, it would have had more impact to me. To me, the couple that should never break up is Strongbow & Moonshade. They are the definitive "we're in love couple" - so I see where Wendy was going by breaking them apart - but I feel she took too long and the answer was obvious. It would have been better (for me, I think) - had she broke them up SOONER - then retroactively have them talk as to why it went the way it did.