Final Quest #17

Miscellaneous wrote:

@LurkingCat wrote:
The quest for the treasury: Why don't they do the same what Ekuar did when he and the Trolls escaped it (but backwards) in KotbW3?

Because they can't find it from the outside? Landscape has changed and that was long ago.

Good point - but Ahdri can feel the traps in the stone, can't she feel the room? Or they could at least tunnel in the general direction of the treasury and just risk a peak here and there.

Lunakat wrote:

SPECULATION WARNING (About to speculate):
Cutter and Skywise tussle. At some point, Cutter goes to punch him hard-core and smashes his fist into the ground or wall instead. At some point (either shortly before or after that), Skywise uses his soul name either in surprise or to try to connect with him. Cutter freaks out and runs. Someone-- either Skywise or Leetah-- tries to go running after him. Cutter triggers a trap that he, being so quick, blithely escapes-- but the person chasing him falls into. Seeing his loved one in danger, Cutter (if loved one is Skywise, remembers that "no elf must die, even if he is my enemy!" Because that's such a great line, I believe it must be used repetitively.... or, if Leetah, just thinks "Noooo!") , and returns to save said individual. In order to do so, he is forced to regain control of his senses, shock himself back into full sanity, and come to grips with his identity to a certain extent... but it happens really fast. They then go to the armory and uncover something only Timmain would know about-- and that only Timmain remembers seeing, because she was there in wolf form during Book 4.

Very interesting, I could see that.
I also wonder if Ahdri ends as casualty of this little quest. Somehow I have a Red Shirt feeling there.

Ahdri can feel the traps, but unlike Ekuar, she's never been to the armoury and wouldn't know where it is. Also, I'm sure its earlier to tunnel out, following the guide of Rayek's sending to the surface, than tunnel down in and try to hit the nail on the head in a mass of tunnels.

Shadowpath wrote:

She lived? I have to say I'm surprised!

The human girl in Mender's Tale... Yes, she did- but she was unhappy with that choice. She told him she would have preferred the other option--- to do what was socially expected of her and remain a member of her community-- but that he took away her choice. It was not a happy ending.

Miscellaneous wrote:

At first glance I was annoyed by the Mender-Dart scene: I found it unrealistic, and I had loved all their previous scenes... Then I remembered how some of my friends behaved in the first months of a new dalliance... Ok, not so unrealistic.

Too bad Shuna isn't around, she and Dart could have a little talk (for you Sifra, if you were looking for new ideas )
Shuna: Erm. Remember how you felt about my first marriage?
Dart (still in a dreamberry daze): What? Nothing in common. Mender IS perfect. And he hasn't blown any human lately!

I think Dart is funny like this.
Great idea, about that talk! It would be funny to draw Shuna's face.

Lunakat wrote:

Miscellaneous wrote:

At first glance I was annoyed by the Mender-Dart scene: I found it unrealistic, and I had loved all their previous scenes... Then I remembered how some of my friends behaved in the first months of a new dalliance... Ok, not so unrealistic.

Especially since there was so much build up with Kimo. I cant see that as anything but a break-up. Its just odd for Dart to go from "Sorry-- I know its been years, but I can't commit!" to "Yes!!! Im sooo in love! (Who are you again?)" I think Mender worked some healer's mojo on him. He's unethical that way. (Plus, it's the only way this makes sense to me.)

I think Dart just has a thing for boys with a dark side. Shushen could be pretty mean. Maybe Kimo was just too nice for him.
Secretly I would love it if it turns out Mender tricked him and he would go running back to Kimo.

I think the Dart/Mender scene comes across as odd because while we've seen Mender flirt and make innuendos, we haven't really seen Dart.

On the topic of Mender and ethics: is Mender's Tale considered canon, or did Wendy deep-six it?

She probably killed it, which is a shame, because while it was a very harsh story (esp. in the New Tens, when Mender's "seduction" is rightly viewed as rape), I enjoyed how it deconstructed the whole "fairy helper aids the hero" and "live happily ever after with your true love" tropes. Also how it showed just how little the elves understood human mores, and the consequences of the blithely assuming that you can "fix" someone else's culture.

Ah well... assuming the little kid Yun got stuck babysitting was proto-Khorbasi, Wendy already retconned that part back in the days of the Recognition Summer Special. I'm assuming it's been worldpooled.

On the canon/not canon topic: I find it easier to think of the non-Wendy comics as the real story but told by someone who heard it from someone else who dreamed it... or something like that. I forget all the parts I don't like...

Didn't read the Mender's tale but I can see how it could happen, an elf a bit careless like Mender messing up some poor human life, because he didn't took the time to find out how humans live beforehand. Not meaning her harm, not to have power over her or something, lovemaking is just a casual way to know each other for elves... Although that doesn't make it better for her at all. On the contrary. Now humans will have tales of dangerous seduction by wood spirits he he... Sorry for the off-topic musing.

Miscellaneous, he absolutely knew he was coercing her. If someone doesn't want to shake your hand, you don't back them against the wall until they have no choice. The wall he backed her into was figurative, not literal, but he definitely and deliberately engineered it so she felt she had no choice.

That's why it is so weird that Wendy chose him to be part of her first Openly Gay Couple.

As I recall, he totally thought she's "get into it" once they started, and he was utterly confused that she was sobbing throughout. Poor bewildered Mender. /sarcasm

It was... VERY disturbing. And a very gutsy choice on the part of the writers to deconstruct the whole "free love is the best" mantra of Elfquest. He puts her resistance down to shame that needs to be overcome rather than respecting her right to say no. Very dark, and very relevant.

Which is why I suspect it was retconned. It doesn't fit the "elfin culture is all pure and good"

Hm, I can see how that would be both disturbing and interesting for the story. If Mender keeps a bit of that dark side of him. Which I doubt, from what we've seen this past issues. Better for Dart, but not for us reader maybe

I never read Mender's Tale as a deconstruction of the EQ mantra (but it was also ages ago), well, this would be an interesting take. I always thought it was a failed attempt to show how right the elven lifestyle was and how misguided we humans are.

Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? Wasn't being a spirit something equally good to being alive? If Cutter solely existing in spirit form were a worse outcome (to being alive) why not pick up the elves who want to answer the call? Apparently, having a body is better than having none (which is probably why Go Backs are considered stupid, they always want to die fighting), so why rob those immortals of their bodies?


(and I have to stop thinking about the expression "living worm water" )

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? Wasn't being a spirit something equally good to being alive? If Cutter solely existing in spirit form were a worse outcome (to being alive) why not pick up the elves who want to answer the call? Apparently, having a body is better than having none (which is probably why Go Backs are considered stupid, they always want to die fighting), so why rob those immortals of their bodies?

Well, Skywise wanted to answer the call, didn't he? Big Momma Wolf wouldn't let him. And apparently Skywise has yet to discover the power of a garden hose on stubborn canines.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? 

I think it has more to do with him wanting to physically have Cutter. Aka he's trowing a fit because he doesn't want to lose somebody he can sleep with.

Shadowpath wrote:

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? 

I think it has more to do with him wanting to physically have Cutter. Aka he's trowing a fit because he doesn't want to lose somebody he can sleep with.

If Elfquest was a bit more popular, there would be so weird porn popping up (Timmain satisfying two desires in one).

I think Timmain needs rather a healthy whack on the back of her head than just a garden hose

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? 

I think it has more to do with him wanting to physically have Cutter. Aka he's trowing a fit because he doesn't want to lose somebody he can sleep with.

If Elfquest was a bit more popular, there would be so weird porn popping up (Timmain satisfying two desires in one).

...Well, I haven't seen weird elfquest porn yet.

I want to buy the issue but I'm scared of more flowery language. It's a dilemma.

I mostly just look at the art.

The coloring was a little bit better, but not always. I dunno coloring language, but the differences between Venkas coloring in separate situations is just so weird! Even on the same page! The top frame in the page we see her with cocooned Two-Edges she's a nice neutral brownish yellows, and then in the bottom frame she's suddenly that gross intense yellow I've seen and hated in other issues. And she's the only one whos changed too, Aroree is right next to her but doesn't change hardly at all I think

Someone earlier was wondering why it felt like Cutter was channeling Timmain. And I said it was because his pose was essentially the same as hers. It's actually exactly the same. The head is identical, but the body flipped horizontally (thank goodness for that necklace of his!).

He's got face fur, clothes and pupils looking up-- but check out the the pony tail and the bangs in both pictures.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Does Skywise discriminate against dead elves? Wasn't being a spirit something equally good to being alive? If Cutter solely existing in spirit form were a worse outcome (to being alive) why not pick up the elves who want to answer the call? Apparently, having a body is better than having none (which is probably why Go Backs are considered stupid, they always want to die fighting), so why rob those immortals of their bodies?

Didn't the High Ones, too? They decided to have a body is preferable. And for Skywise death was always something terrible and he mourns the dead. And he wanted to pick up the elves who answered the call, but Timmain shushed him.


The copypasty makes me sad... one day when I have too much time on my hands I should do a FQ compilation...


Tonight I got an other small speculation idea I wanted to drop here: Maybe in the fight between Cutter and Skywise, his faceguard (?) breaks and later it will be repaired with a star. That would explain the preview FQ pictures of Skywise with star on this thing (which I find pretty ugly and until now am glad that it wasn't used, yet).

Hmmm... Timmain doesn't seem to care much about life or death do they? For themselves or others, it's all about the lessons and it doesn't matter if it's cut short or goes on.

I wonder if her silence and sorta abrupt shutdown of Skywise worries, both for those who hear the call and Cutters wolfblood, is just another lesson to her? Did she manipulate Skywise into this fight? I mean he's always been all about the life and all but only after the joining with Timmain did he start to be really intense about it and talk about how all the healers should unite.

This is really creepy tho, I mean it's sorta been hinted that to her all elves are just toys that beings like her use to learn about life. Maybe they did this with the trolls as well? The ancient wrong? And among the things I've been obsessing over is what's up with Strongbow, the most powerful sender of all the wolfriders and what he gets from timmains first sending is "next to her we're lower than worms!", wich might seem like him comparing wolfriders to high ones, but what if that thought came directly from Timmain? That certainly would explain why he avoids the heck out of her and why he can't stand the palace!

namuhna wrote:

I wonder if her silence and sorta abrupt shutdown of Skywise worries, both for those who hear the call and Cutters wolfblood, is just another lesson to her? Did she manipulate Skywise into this fight? I mean he's always been all about the life and all but only after the joining with Timmain did he start to be really intense about it and talk about how all the healers should unite.

I wonder that, too, if Timmain is a great manipulator... From FQ Timmain I get a creepy vibe. In some panels she looks sinister to me. Like the one when Skywise said "No one should stay behind! I couldn't bear it!" after their rolling in the grass: It's kinda like "Mission accomplished, hehehehe". Maybe she is the "evil in plain sight"? (I don't know, where I got this teaser snipped from, but it stuck in my head...).

Edit: Must have mixed it up: It's "But a devastating secret, long hidden in plain sight, is also moving into the light." (Teaser for FQ Volume 2) -  and this meant probably Tim-Tam...

I don't see any way Timmain was manipulating Skywise. I think that's just him honestly not wanting Cutter to die-- and it's consistent with his character.

I can see it from his point of view. Cutter's death really is unnecessary and totally avoidable. The cure would affect Cutter in ways that make him uncomfortable and change his basic nature-- but Skywise did it himself and knows one can get through it-- plus, it would make Cutter like Leetah (whom he claims to love). Not to mention every other elf who isn't a Wolfrider. So... is change really so very bad? There's kind of a huge payoff here for the sacrifice.

It reminds me of a situation my brother in law had recently with his dad. He father came down with cancer. At first, he didn't want chemo. But he finally did it. He did one full round of chemo-- which made him miserable-- but he got through it. All he had to do after that was have the tumor removed. He just had to stay healthy enough for the surgery. Sound doable-- right?

Here was the catch. The chemo killed his appetite. He didn't enjoy eating anymore because he wasn't hungry. He simply would not eat. They tried everything. They made him his favourite shake and put vitamins and protein powder in it. He drank 1/4 of it maybe. They made him his favourite meal. He didn't touch it. They pleaded and reasoned-- and he just said he wasn't going to eat what he didn't want to eat. He ended up too weak for the surgery and died.

My mom says she completely understands. She says that if she comes down with cancer-- she wouldn't do any chemotherapy, no matter how treatable her cancer is-- because she would rather die than live a life with lack of traste or other such discomforts.

From Skywise's pov-- it's sort of the same thing. You have a friend with cancer who needs a treatment. It's not a pleasant treatment (chemo)-- but it gives them a 100% chance of survival. And they won't do it because they don'tt like the potential side effects. Sure, that's their call-- but if you love the person, how maddening and frustrating!

Don't know if I can compare cancer treatment with getting wolf blood removed, that's rather extreme and too much of a real world scenario in terms of chemo being a dangerous yet usually necessary method to treat a disease .

Nothing about getting wolfblood removed comes off as painful over the longterm, it just sounds like a huge adjustment and wolfriders aren't exactly renowned for their flexibility in terms of change. If anything Cutter is the only one who is considered the most flexible. However, maybe he's hanging on to this thing about remaining mortal because he's gone against 'the way' for so long that maybe there's some kind of need to retain *something* of the 'the way'.
I personally think the argument has gone on too long about this subject in FQ - it's kind of ridiculous. You can get your wolfblood removed and still get killed. You aren't omnipotent. However, it's also shown that all those wolfriders who get the blood removed automatically go live in the palace. I mean, is this a thing? Do you just lose interest in being outside or something once that happens, because it sure looks like it. Obviously the wolfriders aren't 'comfortable' for extended periods in the palace before that, but is it absolutely necessary to go live there after you do? I just think this entire argument about wolfblood has nothing to do with immortality so much as it has to do with lifestyle. We haven't had a wolfrider get his blood changed and want to continue living outside, except for Skywise early on, but he's also always totally been into the palace too.
It seems very either/or and makes the stakes now almost seem artificially higher than they need to be for the story. They've had such a long damn time to ruminate and think about the blood removal thing. It's not that big of a deal anymore, why is it continuing to be, it's just feels like very manufactured drama.

Windkin wanted to live outside. But then again, that was the only way he could fly. And who knows how much longer he might wanna stay on Abode.