Final Quest #22

I know that other elves went to the palace without punishment Sifra, but none of those elves had a twenty-issue character arc of their lifemate guilting, bullying and sulking at them because they wanted to make that choice. The fact that this is the conclusion of Moonshade and Strongbow's struggle does imply to me that the intended take-away message is: Strongbow was in the right all along and she shouldn't have tried to change herself. Because personal growth is selfish or something and you owe your very being to your loved ones no matter what sacrifices they ask of you. But again, that is me. I am very cynical.

Things I liked:
Venka’s birthing scene.  Beautiful and peaceful and keeping up with the hippie trends!  (Is anyone else amused by a water birth for a space-faring child? Also, I think said child must be Windkin’s – or Mirff is from Tyldak – because otherwise, why is Venka claiming Glider blood for the little girl?)

It felt like more happened this issue.  It was more satisfying.

The treatment of Rayek.  As far as I’m concerned, the re-writing I did back when Rayek first had Winnowill in the Palace is now canon.  The version Wendy had made it look like a huge, horrible mistake – but then it was laughed off with a joke about Petalwing’s singing.  I didn’t get it.  But it seems she did intend for it to be positive, so now I shall pretend he really did refuse to be part of a forced healing and choose to protect Winnowill until healing was her own, open choice.  (You know, if they wanted to stay on message, they could just have had Rayek say “Love asks.” They certainly made enough of a point about it elsewhere.)

Things I didn’t like:

Moonshade’s death.  It doesn’t fit the story for so many different reasons, many of which have already been discussed.

Questions I am left with:

Why was it Rayek and Windkin reacting to and going after Strongbow?  Is this some kind of “Us loners must stick together” thinking?

Does anyone else find it kind of creepy how Timmain and Skywise look alike?
Where’s the Space Police?  That’s distracted operation of an FTL, Time-travelling vehicle!

One other thing:

I would really like the discussion here to quit picking on Strongbow.  I would feel exactly as he is feeling throughout this whole thing and I find the snarking and blaming to be hugely unfair.  We're not talking about a choice to go study a few classes at university.  We're talking about a decision that was effectively abandoning everything they had together.  You damn well bet I'd be upset if my husband said "I want this nifty new course in Psychology more than I want my life with you."

manga wrote:

Things I liked:
Also, I think said child must be Windkin’s – or Mirff is from Tyldak – because otherwise, why is Venka claiming Glider blood for the little girl?

Wondered about this too, manga! I like your approach ... ^^

It's hard not to pick on Strongbow. His attitude has been so consistently unyielding. I've seen Moonshade make several attempts to compromise and meet him on middle ground throughout FQ, and I've seen him insist No! On my ground only! time after time. He's pretty much not willing to change anything about his life in order to be with her. Yet she gets all the blame.

Let's look at the inverse scenario, Sunstream and Brill. Now admittedly they probably have less relationship drama with clinginess, seeing as how they are lifemates and yet don't live together or even in the same geographical area, but leaving that oddness aside: did Brill ever pressure and guilt Sunstream the way Strongbow has been doing? Has Sunstream ever been portrayed as selfish or damaging his relationship with Brill because he was apparently without question going with the Palace, whether or not he left her behind? Don't think so, it was the other way around. It was the dude pressuring the chick to think of his needs/desires above hers. Of course.

Embala wrote:

manga wrote:

Things I liked:
Also, I think said child must be Windkin’s – or Mirff is from Tyldak – because otherwise, why is Venka claiming Glider blood for the little girl?

Wondered about this too, manga! I like your approach ... ^^

I wondered about that as well. But Kahvi asked Windin to father her baby, so I wonder if Tyldak can father children at all? There's also Aroree, maybe she is Mirff's mother?

I'm not going to start a Strongbow War to go with the Rayek Wars from years ago. But I think you're reading of it is unnecessarily harsh, Sun Girl and Wingthing. Brill and Sunstream's situation is not analogous. He met her in spirit form through the palace - that was an established part of their relationship from the beginning. And relationships as deeply intwined and firmly established as Moonshade and Strongbow's shouldn't snap apart like Legos. Otherwise it's not a lifemating, it's a "until I find something better" mating.

Moving on to Savateen's Glider heritage:

Tyldak fathered Windkin just fine. Kahvi asked Windkin to father a child with her after Tyldak was killed.

Aroree could the Mirrf's mother, I suppose, but I don't know if she has the ability to ovulate without Recognition. That seems to be a specifically Go-Backs trick.

I wondered if Venka is thinking "Glider" the way Rayek is a "Glider." After all she's claiming Wolfrider and that's all cultural not biological. A stretch I'll admit, since Rayek was only ever an Uber for the Gliders' souls. But it was the only explanation I could think of, since Mirrff there looks 100% Go-back.

You don't address Strongbow's unwillingness to compromise, Manga, but I see your point about Sunstream and Brill not being entirely analogous. I still think it took two to tango this relationship to the breaking point..

wingthing wrote:

I wondered if Venka is thinking "Glider" the way Rayek is a "Glider." After all she's claiming Wolfrider and that's all cultural not biological. A stretch I'll admit

Whoever Venka's child's father is, maybe they're related to the Go-Back stripling who could levitate. Y'know, from Kahvi's miniseries? Even if he stifled his power, it could've been inherited in Venka's child strongly enough that it "felt" like a Glider's power? But that's just a wild Hail Mary shot in the dark and it's all I got. :-/

SunGirl, I don't think I ever said it was all Moonshade's fault. As the one making the changes to the relationship, I'd say she seems the "aggressor" but that's just for lack of a better word and fits right in with your comment about it taking two to tango the relationship apart.

I have to admit I just don't see Moonshade's story the way you guys seem to. I don't think it shows Moonshade being punished for her desires. I think it's supposed to be the pathos of finally having them and having it taken away ... Except I still don't see how death is supposed to mean anything to them now.

Going back to the comic, is anyone else a bit confused by the fawning over little Savateen and how she'll never know harshness or cruelty and how it contrasts with Timmain's insistence on the Lesson of Pain?

Also, Kahvi has Wolfrider blood from Two-Spear, so Venka's claim of Wolfrider blood for Savateen is not just cultural.

Fair enough, Manga. I have to admit again, I may be projecting. I guess we can say the theme of Moonshade's FQ arc has not been presented very clearly, if different readers can take away such contradictory impressions from it.

There has been a lot about FQ that isn't clearly presented at all. There are so many places where ellipses are used and the thread that picks up after doesn't seem related. Like the scene with Rayek, Leetah and Cutter here in #22. Rayek breaks off and I don't see how that leads to the rest of the scene.

I think this issue was actually quite good. The main reason I'm not contributing much to any EQ discussions is the ongoing Strongbow bashing. He was my fave character from my starting to collecting the comics in 1986 and the only reason I'm still reading them. If you don't understand him by now, well, I can't help you then. But I'm massively annoyed by you folks saying he's an unyielding dumb-ass. You're entitled to your very own projections but don't ask me to explain anything you're too prejudiced to understand.
Oh, of course you don't ask me to. Fine. I'm outta here.

It's just like real life: The normopaths rule. Anything they don't understand is shredded to bits, ridiculed or killed.

It's possible to understand a fictional character just fine while still disliking them. But I'll drop the subject of Strongbow since it seems to affect people so personally.

It may be possible (Alex in Clockwork Orange I could still understand while disliking him - however, I disliked what had been done to him much more than what he did) but this analogy does not work here.
I just see that many of you Strongbow bashers do not make an effort to see things from his perspective. Either you can't - then you can't be blamed - or you just don't bother. In that case, you should be pitied. You miss a depth that can't be explained to you.

Well, I was gonna drop the subject, but since we're playing the high horse game. Maybe for some people the bad taste of rape apologism has never left their mouths. It doesn't take much more than expressing a pathological disinterest in another person's bodily autonomy for me to decide a character is a jerk. I guess I'm just a closed mind. Thanks for your pity, I'm sure it will be a great consolation to me as I drift in the meaningless cold void of Not Appreciating Strongbow.

I thin there's a weird parallel between Savah and Leetah now.

Savah, mother of memory, lost her mate, hands over her title to Leetah who will eventually lose her mate.

Unless Cutter is now immortal and I missed it.

manga wrote:

One other thing:

I would really like the discussion here to quit picking on Strongbow.  I would feel exactly as he is feeling throughout this whole thing and I find the snarking and blaming to be hugely unfair.  We're not talking about a choice to go study a few classes at university.  We're talking about a decision that was effectively abandoning everything they had together.  You damn well bet I'd be upset if my husband said "I want this nifty new course in Psychology more than I want my life with you."

Thank you for pointing this out, manga, and bringing some balance to the view on Strongbow in general and the Strongbow/Moonshade relationship developement featured in FQ. I share the thoughts and feelings you've expressed here and you the following posts.

Stormcatcher wrote:

I think this issue was actually quite good. The main reason I'm not contributing much to any EQ discussions is the ongoing Strongbow bashing. He was my fave character from my starting to collecting the comics in 1986 and the only reason I'm still reading them. If you don't understand him by now, well, I can't help you then. But I'm massively annoyed by you folks saying he's an unyielding dumb-ass. You're entitled to your very own projections but don't ask me to explain anything you're too prejudiced to understand.

You speak for me too, Storm.

manga wrote:

Moving on to Savateen's Glider heritage:

Tyldak fathered Windkin just fine. Kahvi asked Windkin to father a child with her after Tyldak was killed.

Aroree could the Mirrf's mother, I suppose, but I don't know if she has the ability to ovulate without Recognition. That seems to be a specifically Go-Backs trick.

You are totally right. I don't know why I mis-remembered that part. I acutally liked the part in FQ about Kahvi and Tyldak.

Ok, I'm going to inject something here, since I did read the issue - and it's about Strongbow. He's annoyingly emo and gets on my nerves since he seems completely incapable of change. I think though that the problem here is not just his relationship with Moonshade so much as whatever the hell Moonshade was doing was always vague. It;s just ben lazy character development in terms of her - and I did like Moonshade a lot before, esp in th Hidden Years issue. But then she lost her spin in that she needs to go run to the palace to *feel* immortal. I'm somehow supposed to take her word at being all, Screw that you're on your own , and then she lives in the palace , as some kind of acceptable thing character wise but overall I think the palace is an idiotic thing in terms of story and I don't have any idea why any well developed character would go live in that glistening, new age type of crap place. Moonshade maybe decided to change and then we eventually saw she had been practicing some new skill about disappearing (LOL how appropriate for this character in general ) and we're like all happy for her? I feel bad for strongbow in the sense of where the hell did Moonshade GO. And yeah he shoud've done more, sure. But really, was Moonshade even Moonsahde when she left her tribe? She just seemed to be hiding away for a long time :/

Months ago I predicted that Strongbow would do some suicidal levels of BS and kill himself to be close to her. I have no satisfaction in knowing I am right, and seeing that Moonshade 'protected' him. I mean , her death was sad yet unnecessary . what the hell is the point of making a couple go back and forth for so many issues about her choices, making it clearly be about her growing, and then totally shutting that down in killing her. I mean, as a reader I am confused by this, and no wonder Strongbow is too. No wonder he needed time for himself to be like wtf.
In a weird way I am glad she died so that Strongbow isn't left remembering her in terms of wondering anything like how she's doing, etc.

PS- I think Jink will mind wipe her dad, Skywise, when Timmain gives birth to her , and he has a realization that Tam/Timmain are one in the same. The detail that Skywise doesn't know about the TimTam thing is utterly insane and stupid. Wisp really summed up most of what I think here.

Oh my. Flames in the thread.
But we had that with Rayek, too. (And I'm still ready to defend him. :p )

I do not understand all the relationships and characters in EQ, but Moonshade and Strongbow have been a deeply entangled couple. Strongbow is kind of stubborn, yes, he is very set and convinced with things. But why the hell should it be his fault that Moonshade died? Primarily it's the "war men's" fault. They shot. Then, Moonshade also had her way and she really wanted to become all that self-dissolving-from-matter-ethereal being. He clinged to the things he knew and was familiar with. For me there is no real "fault". It is just an old marrieds couple that has lived a bit apart in an area that started to separate them.
With the palace leaving and Strongbow seemed to be finally torn between her and "the way" and his inner barriers, he just needed some "alone time" "cave time", like men do. Okay, he was very torn and frustrated, and the surprised by those war men so he sent away his wolf to safety and was like "ah goddamit, just shoot" (and distracting people from his wolf). Maybe he would have tired to jump at them in the last moment. But we won't know.
Then she appeared, maybe got aware of the situation in an instant (or saw before?) and shielded him, got shot dead. Tragic.
But there is no reason to blame either him or her.


I think there were some good parts otherwise in the comic (Cutter / Rayek's talk was fairly good) and thanks for the fanservice so we finally saw Venka's nipples. Bruhahah. My god, those half-transparent gowns... And no sudden strand of hair coming to the rescue!

I was confused by several jumps and by the lack of a father's presence at birth. I would hold hand or something during birth. But maybe they were not sure who the father is at all. (Though hints of 4 tribes appear.)
And poor Grampa Rayek didn't dare to be there.

There might hints about fatherhood be littered in past issues who it could be, either some Go-Back but also Windkin (he's flying around with Grampa Rayek often recently, maybe there is more to it than the "two loners" "two gliders" thing?).

And Timmain is too thin. On a few panels this is nearly out-of-proportion-thin. But maybe she's also half-spirit by now. And Skywise is going to mate with female-half-wolf-half-high-one-part-spirit-Tam now?

More characters introduced! Yeah! With names! Humans. I already forgot who they are, what they stood for and about their purpose in the story. I thought Wendy was overworked but now they introduce even more characters... aaah!

And folks get and exchange more items. Item with glitter and shine and stuff that make them harder to draw because you have to invest more time into all the jewels and decorations. (Though that has always been a part of EQ.)

Oh yeah, and now SHE needs to test him and prove his love or love in general is just in vain, blahblah, something, pulled from afar, whatever reason so Rogue's Curse will be canon. :p
I hate that part.

And complaint about the cover! How did the cover (I'm still sure it's Rayek) relate to the content? Maybe I missed something? (Near last panel, I know, but different day/nighttime. :p )

Another point on the "Moonshade shouldn't have died" list:

Bullets in that era were neither fast enough nor shaped right to go through the body like that, let alone come out with enough velocity to continue on and strike someone else. The kind of bullets those guns throw are little round balls. It should have struck her and gone bouncing around inside her body. It would have done a lot of damage and could have killed her, yes, but not that fast. Yun should have had time to get her to a healer.

Again, nevermind that if you can disassociate your body on the atomic level and reassemble it, you can just blink yourself whole. I suppose you can argue she was too shocked to do it in time. But we had some of the most powerful healers and the Palace right there and Moonshade's spirit too, so why didn't they heal her? Just because her heart stopped doesn't mean she's dead. Brain activity continues for several minutes.

[quote="manga"]Another point on the "Moonshade shouldn't have died" list:

Bullets in that era were neither fast enough nor shaped right to go through the body like that, let alone come out with enough velocity to continue on and strike someone else. The kind of bullets those guns throw are little round balls. It should have struck her and gone


Because Wendy has it in her head that all firearms are evil and probably has never taken a course in gun handling or bothered to acquaint herself with the history of firearms who were used as artillery or thrown like a sling. It's also the same reason why the invasion comes off as half-assed. It was handled a lot better in Siege at Blue Mountain where two Gotara worshipers teamed up a rogue group of Hoang T'Asho despite differences in who they worship,because they had common enemies. This on the other hand,is coming off as a poorly written action movie.

Zadzi wrote:

overall I think the palace is an idiotic thing in terms of story and I don't have any idea why any well developed character would go live in that glistening, new age type of crap place. Moonshade maybe decided to change and then we eventually saw she had been practicing some new skill about disappearing (LOL how appropriate for this character in general ) and we're like all happy for her? I feel bad for strongbow in the sense of where the hell did Moonshade GO. And yeah he shoud've done more, sure. But really, was Moonshade even Moonsahde when she left her tribe? She just seemed to be hiding away for a long time :/

This really sums up my feelings on the issue, Zadzi. I don't know who Moonshade was by the time she died, but she certainly wasn't herself.

Moonshade and Strongbow were my favorite characters when I was a kid. At the time, I didn't really appreciate how much they were a portrait of conservatism. Like a lot of conservative women, Moonshade largely understood herself in terms of her relationships--to her mate, to her kids, to her community. She had "soft" power within those relationships (like in that scene at Blue Mountain where she quietly works on a brooding Strongbow in the rain, away from the prying eyes of the tribe. Within their relationship they had a certain dynamic, but to everyone outside they presented a united front.) In retrospect, I don't have much in common with either of them. The things I used to find "romantic" about their relationship, like their single-minded devotion to one another, Strongbow's moodiness, Moonshade's "silk over steel" inflexibility, etc. now strike me as a bit less attractive. Another reader's mileage may vary, obviously, and in any event, their flaws and quirks made them fun and interesting characters.

I don't blame Moonshade or Strongbow for their situation in FQ. Intellectually and even emotionally to some extent, I can commiserate with both of them. I blame the storytelling for serving their story inadequately, or even undermining their story. The art, pacing, and plotting really let them down. On paper, the idea of a late-in-life awakening of a conservative woman is unusual and interesting. It would be like the local evangelical pastor's wife getting into crystal healing and reiki and leaving the heartland to join a hippie collective in California. That could be a good story! But the presentation was subtle where it should have been obvious and superficial where it should have been insightful. The emotional push-and-pull of separation was handled like a sledgehammer (and a verrrrry slow moving sledgehammer at that.) Moonshade's constant coming and going diluted the intensity of the dynamic. The insipidness of the palace as a setting made it almost impossible for me to identify with Moonshade's decisions.

Then the scene of her death was too ambiguous, IMO. As noted by others, the shooting, as illustrated, doesn't make it 100% clear what's going on, in a scene that demands clarity. Was it a terrible accident? A knowing sacrifice? Ultimately Strongbow tells us what to think, but it's definitely within Wendy's artistic power to show us and make us feel it.

Given the way their story unfolded, I don't have a problem with Moonshade choosing to sacrifice herself. I think it was better that she exercised her agency, whatever the result. I do think their story would have been better served if they'd fought and spent decades estranged from one another. That would have injected a bit more pathos to her death (i.e. if this was their first meeting in a long time and not their fifth farewell that day), and I think that level of stubbornness and inflexibility is true to both their characters. Because Moonshade is just as intractable as Strongbow, she's just usually more quiet about it. It would have been cool to see her keep her awesomely b!tchy personality and just transfer her allegiance from the Way to the palace. That's why I liked that one panel where she has a smirk on her face. That's the Moonshade I know and love, the one who told off Leetah with her hands on her hips, and let a giant bird carry her into the unknown, and shut down Ahnshen with an ice cold burn.

manga wrote:

Again, nevermind that if you can disassociate your body on the atomic level and reassemble it, you can just blink yourself whole. I suppose you can argue she was too shocked to do it in time. But we had some of the most powerful healers and the Palace right there and Moonshade's spirit too, so why didn't they heal her? Just because her heart stopped doesn't mean she's dead. Brain activity continues for several minutes.

Sigh. Yeah, it's sloppy and melodramatic. But I would go with it completely if the story prepared me to make that leap emotionally.

jaRf wrote:

More characters introduced! Yeah! With names! Humans. I already forgot who they are, what they stood for and about their purpose in the story. I thought Wendy was overworked but now they introduce even more characters... aaah!

We know that in futurequest, the WoTM is ruled by a matriarchy and that there are some elf-y powers, etc. I think we're supposed to assume that the human community in Ember's old holt (plus Shuna) is going to be the origin of that society, with the memory of the elves as a sort of benevolent origin mythology. I agree that we don't need to see them. I didn't remember they existed until they showed up, and frankly I don't care about them one way or another.