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 Final Quest # 13

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Outlier

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:55 am

manga wrote:
What I don't get is this seeming attitude that once you live I the Palace you will never, ever live anywhere else.

That's a good point, and makes me wonder again about the nature of "the call" and what it's purpose is. From what we've seen, it seems to be a broadcast to all the elves that the palace is running and ready to go, but there doesn't seem to be any time-frame or urgency to it.

Is Sunstream monitoring the elves who are trying to get there and they are waiting for them to show up? Are they going to wait until all elves who have indicated that they want to go have "sung all thier songs"? If that's the case, what will happen to Korafay if the palace needs to leave while she's still out there getting Abode out of her system? Will the palace just leave without her? Will Timmain just suddenly announce that the time is right, like she did for her disclosure to Cutter, and everyone not in the palace at that time will be left behind?

Then if I was Sunstream I'd tell Korafay to go ahead and get her butt in the palace because I am not leaving without her.

If the palace is going to go around and pick some elves up, why send out the call that everyone needs to come to the palace? Can't they just make thier reservation with Sunstream, do what they need to on Abode, then be picked up when it's time to leave? I mean, the palace can time-travel if it needs to. It could pick everyone all over the planet instantly.

The palace has really been nothing but a pain, storywise.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:18 pm

It's a little difficult for me to articulate why Sunstream's conversation with Korafay rubbed me the wrong way.  In part, I think it's the fact that I don't respond well to his parenting overall.  Now, I'm sure some will point to the "loving warmth" of his sending or the fact that he postponed his duty in order to raise Korafay, and I'll concede those points.  However, we never got to see any of that.  We saw him drop his daughter and his lifemate off in a warzone so that he could rush back to the palace and do nothing.  We see this conversation in which he explicitly tells his frightened daughter that to live is to learn the lesson of pain (and I agree with @sun girl that my aversion to any mention of this "lesson" stems from its earlier use by Timmain).  

Outlier wrote:


If the palace is going to go around and pick some elves up, why send out the call that everyone needs to come to the palace? Can't they just make thier reservation with Sunstream, do what they need to on Abode, then be picked up when it's time to leave? I mean, the palace can time-travel if it needs to. It could pick everyone all over the planet instantly.

The palace has really been nothing but a pain, storywise.

Totally agree!

manga wrote:
What I don't get is this seeming attitude that once you live I the Palace you will never, ever live anywhere else.

Wendy refers to Timmain as Cutter's "higher self."  In new age lingo, the higher self is an aspect of the "soul" which encompasses the physical incarnation, but which no longer desires or requires physical form itself.  It's like the next step up the ladder of development (which makes it sound more hierarchical than it probably should.) Timmain's not meant to be the female aspect of Cutter (Wendy sees herself as the anima to Cutter's animus).  FWIW, I don't get all this from the comic, but that's Wendy's stated intention per the podcast.

I'm putting this all very clumsily, but the bottom line is that, if Timmain represents the higher self and the palace is her domain, then the elves who join her there have chosen to make the transition to purely spiritual life.   Now, the allegory obviously struggles a bit here because the palace dwellers still have physical forms, but I would say that in story terms, they no longer wish to engage with "terrestrial" reality.  They've decided that they've learned all the lessons there are to learn from corporal existence, and they're learning new lessons related to mind and spirit.  They're "ascended masters," to crib another term from new age.  They're not coming back from that.  It's like, now that you've experienced life as an upright primate with opposable thumbs, would you really want reverse down the evolutionary ladder and live as an amoeba?

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The rules, why and when someone is allowed to go to palace surely are strange. If Brill would've decided to stay in the palace after the meeting, would they have kicked her out? Would she have to travel all the way to the palace to be eligible to stay?

There's an undercurrent to all this that really turns me off.  To earn enlightenment and blissful eternity in the palace, you must despise the world (Moonshade), suffer greatly and abandon all trappings of material comfort (Sunfolk), or mortify the flesh (anonymous couple in wrapstuff, unnamed dead female).  I think life in the palace is supposed to evoke a new age idea of spiritual enlightenment, but I'm getting major flashbacks to my Catholic upbringing.
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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:41 pm

This seems like the crux of my problems with the current story line. When the Palace was regained in OQ, Timmian said that the High Ones had been tempted by the purely spiritual life but had chosen a life seasoned with experiences. She said that the mortality and link to the WoTM of the wolfblood was her gift to her son (and by extension, his children).

So why now is it the COMPLETE opposite? Now Wolfriders can't live in the Palace without losing their wolfblood (what happened to it being a gift?) and life in the Palace, instead of being the voyages of the Starship Awesome-tastic with adventure after adventure waiting for them in each new star system they visit, is now the ultimate in stasis?

It's no definition of heaven I recognize.
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Wisp

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:01 pm

manga wrote:
She said that the mortality and link to the WoTM of the wolfblood was her gift to her son (and by extension, his children).

So why now is it the COMPLETE opposite?

I think you just hit the nail on the head!  They've reversed so hard on the earlier palace storyline that I have whiplash.  

A lot of OQ was about the Wolfriders' struggle for a place in the world.  Sometimes that meant discovering that some humans could be friends (Nonna and Adar).  Sometimes a discovery that they were part of a larger community of elves (Sun Folk, etc.)  But the culmination was when Timmain told them that a place on WoTM was their birthright.  As a shy, young reader, I took away the lesson that I should be proud of the things that made me different and that I'd eventually find a place for myself too. For the Wolfriders to have to give up their wolfblood in order to live in the palace...it's horrifying on some level, like saying they can't get into heaven unless they're willing to mutilate themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:06 pm

Wisp wrote:


I'm putting this all very clumsily, but the bottom line is that, if Timmain represents the higher self and the palace is her domain, then the elves who join her there have chosen to make the transition to purely spiritual life.   Now, the allegory obviously struggles a bit here because the palace dwellers still have physical forms, but I would say that in story terms, they no longer wish to engage with "terrestrial" reality.  They've decided that they've learned all the lessons there are to learn from corporal existence, and they're learning new lessons related to mind and spirit.  They're "ascended masters," to crib another term from new age.  They're not coming back from that.
Uuugh, now I'm thinking Timmain ends up melting their physical forms, like Harken did in that one panel.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:29 pm

sun girl wrote:

Not to take away from the point Manga was making, but Sunstream did use the words "lesson of pain", actually. "It's the lesson of pain, my lovely pip."


Oh god, he did, didn't he. My bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:01 pm

manga wrote:
She said that the mortality and link to the WoTM of the wolfblood was her gift to her son (and by extension, his children).

So why now is it the COMPLETE opposite?  Now Wolfriders can't live in the Palace without losing their wolfblood (what happened to it being a gift?).

To be fair to Timmain (god, there are some words I never thought I'd write), she has never actually said as much. Moonshade and Cutter and Skywise (and others) sure seem to be *assuming* a lot. Although I could imagine that the sterile environment of the Palace would be a lot like living in a zoo for anyone with wolfblood.

Speaking as someone who would dearly like to return this "gift" of mortality, though, I'm quite glad to see more and more elves realize that aging, death and decay are not as sunshine and lollipops as they once thought.

It's a personal beef, but I really hate it whenever immortal characters praise the "special gifts" of mortality - the beauty of their frailty and all that. It seems like the very mortal writers trying to lecture their readers "See, see, death is a good thing! Immortality would be terrible! Stop having an existential crisis about the finite nature of the universe and enjoy your tiny mayfly lives!" I refuse to believe gods envy mortals! How many of us actually long to be ants?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:38 pm

Thing is though that it's hard to not praise mortality since the whole series is written by a mere mortal Razz

In all seriousness though, and I'm going to be rambling all over the place about this - I think it's hard to talk about immortality in an interesting way at all... well, YOU do, Wingthing, because in Alternaverse you bring in all kinds of new inventions as well as feasible problems that come with the possible decisions immortals need to make. The kinds of bumps and trials they come up against over the longterm.

The problem seems to be a lot of the time that immortality comes off as very stagnant... no matter the trappings of the palace and how we're repeatedly told it's so amazing, etc., it's hard to see anything even remotely relatable when it comes to the palace. I guess because we're 'not there yet' as puny mortals ourselves *insert eye roll*... and yet on a more personal level, which may seem superficial, I'm offended by the aesthetics of the palace in general. The place looks like its got a team of OCD elves with mops and windex in between scenes, to make it all sparkle constantly. As a mere mortal myself, I'm drawn to old, dilapidated, run-down places, places that encompass history and time, and yes, that's probably because of the 'fragile beauty' of it all.... I can relate to that. I can't relate to the palace because it's just goddamn dull and too modern looking to me, but like an 80's version of modern which is enough to send me off into the deep end. There's only so much ugliness I can handle.
So I'm on the fence about all this...I can sort of relate to the beauty in mortality thing if even purely on an aesthetic level. But if there was something more interesting about the palace/immortality and what it represented in EQ, I'd be more into it.  

Also, as it stands now, I am of the mind that Timmain has sort of been saying a couple of times that even though the coneheads chose life and the physical, that she didn't have a choice but to be a wolf and give the 'gift' of mortality to her children, it was a long time ago, and now it's time to go because the WoTM is in the danger, the elves themselves are in danger.... but often that's not so much the angle that's being presented as much as 'graduating' to the 'next level'...it's enough to drive you crazy.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:47 pm

The thing that's bugging me is, Wendy has obviously decided to use FQ as a vehicle to plug her own spiritual beliefs and has shoehorned it into the clumsiest allegory possible. Now she's spoon feeding it to us until we gag. The actual story and whether it makes any goddam sense doesn't matter any more, doesn't matter if characters act out of character or their motivations are nonsensical, doesn't matter how many retcons there are...just so long as it fits all the new age BS she wants us to swallow. And the fact that Wendy feels the need to correct readers, and explain so much 'off camera' shows how badly it's coming across. I feel like she's hitting me over the head with all this new age malarkey. Obviously I'm just not evolved enough!
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:24 pm

That's the feeling I have too, Stargazer.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:04 pm

Zadzi wrote:
The place looks like its got a team of OCD elves with mops and windex in between scenes, to make it all sparkle constantly.

rofl
I am not very impressed with the palace, either, and I'm still wondering what the hell they are all doing in there. Now I know! They are cleaning all the time to keep it nice and shiny!

I' assuming mortality and immortality is different for elfs. I have seen old humans wanting to die, because their life was not much fun anymore; they had burried loved ones and their body was breaking down... If you don't have that, and you can still talk to your loved ones, even if they are dead, maybe it's different and you do want to life forever. I know I don't.

I think it's a normal thing for storytellers to want to put issues they care about into their story's.
My problem with FQ is that it is very clumsily put together, both the art and the storytelling.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:42 pm

The overly bright colors in the first few pages remind me of Lisa Frank. But then she would probably do a tidier job at it. I'm expecting the unicorns and dolphins to show up at any moment now.

There are a few decent pages, but god I hate the art over all. It's insultingly bad. It just makes me sad. It's depressing.

Story is a little better than the art- I think the way way the Venka drama played out makes sense, but it is kind of a missed opportunity. Cutter giving it a good fight and doing that hallucination thing he has done before makes sense. It's nice to see the trolls.

As was said before, it does not make sense for humans to follow a dead leader, unless there is religion involved. Maybe the Djun has become some kind of religious figure in death, and that is very bad news. Nothing makes human perform atrocities with more ease than a good dose of religious fervor...
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:40 pm

I agree, Elwig. The 'loyalty' coming out of following a dead leader often comes not just from religion but also from the leader's charisma. And also politics! Humans perform atrocities for many reasons, religion is only one. Land and territory being another (that I can actually get behind story wise since the humans 'breed like rats').
Djun was never shown as charismatic/religious/politically savvy, or anything beyond a hateful, brutish, warmongering a-hole, so it makes little sense to have the humans follow him after his death. It's very poor writing in terms of human complexities. And there is, technically, religion involved in all of this...there always has been: both Nona as well as Shuna have been shown as religious in a way, with Shuna essentially being an emissary of the elves and what they 'represent'. But Djun and the rest of the humans, while they might utter fanatical gibberish, have rarely been shown as religious at all, with exceptions of a random 'Threk'sht' (sp?) thrown into their statements.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:44 pm

Stalin's folks did just fine with their atrocities with the deliberate opposite of religious fervor. Say rather that people are sadly willing to shut down their consciences in the face of "designated authority" or "chosen higher cause."

But I agree the human fleet does not make sense. And who is running things back home, since they have no direct heirs?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:19 pm

Stargazer wrote:
The thing that's bugging me is, Wendy has obviously decided to use FQ as a vehicle to plug her own spiritual beliefs

Yes. Didn't like it when Marion Zimmer Bradley did it with the Darkover series or when Andre Norton did it with the Witch World series. I can tilt my head and ignore it, but it's annoying in FQ because she's changing the world to fit those beliefs, rather than inserting the beliefs where they could easily fit into the world.

As for humans not following dead leaders... there are still Brand Davidians who believe in David Koresh. And don't forget L. Ron Hubbard.

Who's leading the late,unlamented Djun's empire? Probably the advisor we saw in the last issue with Angrif. It's possible we could see a rebellion -- Shuna did wonder if her native people would choose a different path. It's also possible there's a whole lotta power grabbing going on behind the scenes, many different factions springing up.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:41 pm


My guess is not a whole lot of thought went into this. Humans have always been a menace in EQ with a few good ones every now and then. But really, they're all turning into mini Winnowills at this rate.

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:25 pm

I think too many people still under-estimate the ravages the colonization processes can cause...

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:09 pm

PCoquelin wrote:
I think too many people still under-estimate the ravages the colonization processes can cause...

Sorry, can you elaborate? I don't quite understand the connection?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:15 pm

Wouldn't that imply the elves were an invading force, the group that is in control and oppressive as all hell?

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:59 pm

kathleen3.0 wrote:
PCoquelin wrote:
I think too many people still under-estimate the ravages the colonization processes can cause...

Sorry, can you elaborate? I don't quite understand the connection?

I think PCoquelin is talking about how colonization can actually beget religious fanaticism? At least, I think that's what is meant. And I actually agree. But I'm not sure if it relates to EQ in this context.

EDIT: Well, I guess it kind of can relate. But the elves are hardly 'colonizing' where they are, there are barely any on that planet to leave any kind of dent or change human culture significantly....well, except for Two-Edge maybe Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:06 am

If a Djun was a religious figure akin to a pope, well, if one dies people look for a new one and don't follow the old one's last orders. Even if he was some kind of semi-god, they would look for a new one, since the old one is clearly no more. And if "eradicating all demons" was a religious order of sorts, they actually found the location of one group. Why not finish the job there and then go for the icy place? Yes, they got attacked by Rayek, but all Reef did was run at them. Not very threatening.
Also, what an coincidence, that that human from Ember's tribe happened to stumble upon the Djun's men and got included into the raiding party.

I think Ember had to stay with Cutter's tribe, because the humans will go there (in no time, mind you) and she has a traumatic experience with guns.
Where is Fathertree Holt located? More to the east or more to the West? If it's on the Eastern side, the humans have to ship around whole continent.

Korafay kinda reminds me of Emilia Clarke in Game of Thrones (Danaerys) Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:02 am

I feel like it wouldn't take that much to make the human plot come off as a little less one-dimensional -- like if whoever was taking over as new leader was co-opting the late djun's mission to wipe out elves to shore up his own power and quiet the fears of people who had seen Ember and her other Wolfriders in the flesh rather than out of personal animosity.

That was one reason I found Joellyn Auklandus's characterization of Angril Djun interesting. He seemed less obsessed with the elves in and of themselves and more interested in what he could get out of them -- capturing Mender to bulk up his "rabbit's body", using them as a catalyst to rally the people after his father and sister's deaths (and distract them from realizing that he himself was the cause of them), and in "Recognition," using them as a way of covertly enslaving the Longriders. I always got the impression that revenge was more of a secondary concern for him.

In general, in Elfquest, I wish that there was a little more of elves being peripherally affected by human activity and a little less of humans being single-mindedly obsessed with them, either for or against. An awful lot of harm in the world is caused by carelessness and collateral damage rather than malice.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:05 am

That's one reason I'm intrigued by Daboi, actually -- he basically just wants to live his own life.

Or Adar, back in the day -- he was far more nonplussed by the elves than he was fer 'em or agin' 'em.
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:14 am

In general, I actually really liked this issue? I thought the art was better than it's been -- less copy-paste, but also just some more interesting drawings and layouts.

A number of things intrigued me:

* Windkin thanking Winnowill in a very genuine way, and Winnowill's emotionally complicated reaction.

* Daboi bailing on the elves to pursue his actual interests -- and Mender's apparent approval of this -- but still having obvious love and loyalty to them. (They'd better not be pissed at him. It's no one's fault if they cave under torture.)

* Ekuar thinking the elves need to get the hell off this rock for the humans' own good. It strikes me that Ekuar does so much supporting of Rayek that he doesn't share his own opinions all that often.

* Wendy's drawings and characterization of Skimback. Both here and in The Discovery, he's very serious, in general and about his craft, yet obviously really into and curious about the workings of the elfin mind and body. I'm a Wavedancers fan, but in that GN he was barely there except as the object of Brill's yearnings and regret, but in the new stuff I'm finding him an intriguing tertiary character.

* Skywise's "To help him laugh through his big thoughts, I've stayed small -- for him. For love." And it's in no way a resentful sort of thought.


Some things really moved me:

* Poor Reef's reaction to Winnowill's presence. :-( I think he's one of my favorite characters of Final Quest.

* I know I'm going against the grain here, but Sunstream and Korafay's exchange. To me it struck me less as condescending and more as "if you move to the Palace, don't do it because you're avoiding pain, do it because it's something you genuinely want to explore." And "if all the songs inside you that belong to this world of two moons have been sung... when your song is done -- you'll know" was pretty poetic, to me.

* Poor Strongbow being so overwhelmed. He seems to have moved (at least temporarily) past shock and anger and into depression and bewilderment. Also, Nightfall comforting him -- it feels like we haven't really seen the two of them interact all that much, so for some reason that made it especially touching to me.

* Cutter running wild through the forest -- his tangled emotions are palpable and expressed beautifully by the rough, sketchy artwork -- and especially Filcher coming to his defense. Awww.


Other stuff I liked:

* Cutter's kill -- beautifully savage and, uh, visceral.

* Seeing Picknose and Oddbit looking how they did back in the beginning (with just a touch of distinguished silver in Picky's hair and beard) fills me with nostalgia, somehow.

* Trinket wants a pony! Of COURSE Trinket wants a pony. lol!


Stuff I didn't like:

* Any time there's copy-pasted art, but especially when the copy-pasted art brings with it shading and coloring that doesn't fit with anything else in the picture, like on page 18, Ahdri, and Leetah in the top left panel. (The flat colors look better to me anyhow, a lot of the time.)

* The Master of Sea and War's single-minded focus on demons, demons, demons, and how it still seems oddly secondhand given that they'd all just been battling Rayek. It would even feel less forced to me if it were more like "now that I've seen them in person I know how creepy and dangerous they actually are" and less "this only strengthens my will to obey your last command." Also, it struck me as... kind of awkward, somehow, that he's so focused on there being an "original nest of them", and that he's convinced Daboi knows of it.

For that matter, how DOES Daboi know how to direct them to it? It's not that I think it's literally impossible -- he could probably have found out if he was really interested or in some conversation about where Ember's tribe was in relation to Cutter's -- but if ever did visit Cutter's tribe, he was traveling in the Palace in the blink of an eye, it doesn't exactly encourage mapmaking. How useful is "somewhere in a forest across the vastdeep water" even going to be to them?
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PostSubject: Re: Final Quest # 13   Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:05 am

Miss Gillespie wrote:
Where is Fathertree Holt located? More to the east or more to the West?
According to the old maps Fathertreeholt is closer to the west coast,


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