Bad Moments from Favourite Characters

Redhead Ember wrote:

I don't think any single person was to blame for what happened. Leetah was not at fault for being unsure about what she wanted from the relationship, she was at fault for straight up lying to Rayek about saying she would give him and answer.

That's all I'm saying. I sympathise with her difficulty choosing in book one. I've been in a similar situation and I still wish I'd done things differently. But PRIOR to that, she was content to dangle an answer in front of him but not give it. ("A swift reconciliation indeed! I'd have thought she'd let him dangle for at least a year!"  Dangling was, to this point, a thing for Leetah.)

RedheadEmber wrote:

Startear wrote:

I always thought Thiro's name used like that was to tell us, the readers, who this face is. XD

Yeah, me too.
"Hey, look at this guy! He's super-duper important to Leetah and OMHO! HE WAS KILLED BY A ZWOOT!!!!!!!

He was already introduced in the "Initiation" scene in her hut  few pages before. And the dialog isn't written "Come, Thiro" but "Come, Thiro ."

Heated discussion about my favourite character? Mention of all sorts of sensitive topics? Perfect moment to join. And burn my fingers.

Maybe tomorrow.

Loving this debate! So interesting to hear both sides of it.

Now, I don't really have a horse in this race, as neither Leetah nor Rayek are particular favorites of mine...largely because of the way I interpreted their behavior when we first meet them. The HY issues with their backstory only reinforced my impression of the relationship. I think Rayak and Leetah were in a pretty bad relationship. Rayak was definitely too possessive, had a sense of ownership over Leetah from a too-young age, pressured her, "frightened" her in at least one instance (by demanding more than she was willing to give). Nothing is worse than a guy who feels entitled.

Leetah, otoh, was a bit of a "princess" when we first met her--albeit a princess with incredible powers and responsibility for her community. She liked being the object of Rayek's devotion....unless he overstepped her bounds. I think it should have been clear from her words and actions that Rayek was asking more than she was willing to give. But to be fair, if one person wants something serious and the other person doesn't, the kinder (and harder) thing to do is to take a step back from the relationship. Rayek and Leetah were lovemates for hundreds of years, however. We don't know if there were periods when she refrained from being with him. The first scene we see between them, right before Leetah recognizes Cutter, Leetah looks like something of a tease, which isn't the greatest approach given their history.

It eventually becomes clear that Leetah is much more uncertain about her own wishes and desires than she was probably willing to admit, even to herself. I don't think either Rayek or Leetah covered themselves with glory in their relationship, but I also think it was a very recognizable and honest romantic dynamic. They both contributed to the situation, but as a woman, Rayek's possessiveness sets off a lot of alarm bells in my head and seems more problematic.

As for bad moments, I agree with many that were cited earlier . Most of what Bearclaw does is pretty awful. Striking Joyleaf was a particular low.

When I was young, Moonshade was a favorite, but her comments to Leetah after Cutter left on his quest were quite nasty. I think (up until FQ) Moonshade was a beautiful portrait of the best and worst aspects of a conservative person. Moonshade (and people like her) are a necessary element in any functioning society--if they have too little influence, there's no structure, too much, and things can get a little fascistic. She was drawn with a lot of compassion and nuance. The exchange with Leetah showed the ugly side of conservatism--superior, intolerant, and small-minded.

Wisp wrote:

When I was young, Moonshade was a favorite, but her comments to Leetah after Cutter left on his quest were quite nasty.  I think (up until FQ) Moonshade was a beautiful portrait of the best and worst aspects of a conservative person.  Moonshade (and people like her) are a necessary element in any functioning society--if they have too little influence, there's no structure, too much, and things can get a little fascistic.  She was drawn with a lot of compassion and nuance.  The exchange with Leetah showed the ugly side of conservatism--superior, intolerant, and small-minded.    

This is much why Moonshade has been my quiet favorite for sometime. It seemed a loving, balanced portrait of us more conservative people.

I have to disagree that her exchange with Leetah showed the ugly side of conservatism. I've known many "liberal types" who were just as superior, intolerant and small-minded. I think it's more the ugly side of sentient being nature, the "I'm Right and you're Not" thing we can all slip in to.

Okay, I re-read the HY 9. Thiro's name was mentioned earlier, way earlier in fact, I just remembered it wrong.

To redirect to bad moments... Why in the two moons did ANYONE in the Sun Village think that letting a child hunt 100 % alone was a good idea? I know this is Rayek's retelling, and some might have started getting concerned without him knowing it, but still. And the jackal hunting Rayek did after he regained mobility in his non-functioning arm... what the hell Rayek.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Startear wrote:

I always thought Thiro's name used like that was to tell us, the readers, who this face is. XD

Yeah, me too.
"Hey, look at this guy! He's super-duper important to Leetah and OMHO! HE WAS KILLED BY A ZWOOT!!!!!!!

(Story wise) By having a zwoot killing the (not very impressing) Thiro, Rayek could blame himself for indirectly killing someone. That's Thiro's main function.

Wisp wrote:

When I was young, Moonshade was a favorite, but her comments to Leetah after Cutter left on his quest were quite nasty.   

I found that exchange bet. Leetah and Moonshade such an interesting example of culture shock of family values. It would seem to be a no-brainer to readers (and presumably the Sun Folk) that of course ONE of the parents should stay behind with the young cubs. While Moonshade was all "Your place is with your lifemate and chief! We can look after the cubs." (with an undertone of "It's our right as Wolfriders to help raise these cubs")

There was that story in EQ2 as well, where Leetah talks about how the Wolfrider viewed her as selfish and possessive because she wanted to raise the cubs all by herself. The Wolfrider way is to share the upbringing.

I'm sure many people interpret that as "it takes a village" and see it as a totally positive thing, but I shudder a little at the idea that the entire tribe has "a right" to horn in on the parent-child bond. And Moonshade's view of Leetah's priorities should be with her lifemate rather than her children... it always made me wanna get in her face and go "Oh, so you'd choose Strongbow over Dart? No wonder your child wanted to be emacipated at 13!"

And yeah, I know... seeing as I'd choose a dirty dishrag over Strongbow, my two cents are worth less than nothing in this debate.

It's funny, the scene with Moonshade's comment toward Leetah at Sorrow's End had me sort of disliking Moonshade initially for a completely different reason...I felt it was an expression of cold ambition (I WOULD leave my child behind "...if Strongbow were chief."). That combined with Strongbow lashing out at Cutter when the humans showed up, and briefly challenging him, had me looking at Strongbow and Moonshade in a way that I wasn't really sure how I felt about them. It became about how "I would totally do it differently if my lifemate was in charge"...and of course I'd be right.
It made me not trust Moondshade entirely.
But she grew on me anyway, a lot more so in the scene where Strongbow left Blue Mountain and Moonshade bowed her head and followed. And then later, when both of them were alone and he was brooding and saying how Cutter wasn't half the chief Bearclaw was, she said something along the lines of, Bearclaw, oh yes. You had your own fair share of fights with him too. Commenting that he had been completely romanticizing the past.
That comment made her grow on me. She spoke truthfully but gently and let Strongbow know in her own way that he'd gone too far with leaving.

Startear wrote:

Okay, I re-read the HY 9. Thiro's name was mentioned earlier, way earlier in fact, I just remembered it wrong.

To redirect to bad moments... Why in the two moons did ANYONE in the Sun Village think that letting a child hunt 100 % alone was a good idea? I know this is Rayek's retelling, and some might have started getting concerned without him knowing it, but still. And the jackal hunting Rayek did after he regained mobility in his non-functioning arm... what the hell Rayek.

This this thisthisthis!!! I've said it before, definitely on the SoC and possibly here, that I absolutely cannot understand why a village of 30-something adults sat back and let a child who hasn't even seen his first decade (or octade) reinvent hunting on his own. Surely the food brought in by a hunter would make up for the loss of his or her work in the gardens. And they continued to do so after he lost an arm!

Boggle, boggle, boggle.

I mean, no wonder he grew up with such an attitude. The adults in his life dropped the ball in his lap from his earliest memories. Clearly he can't trust anyone else to be competent.

(I'm only saying this explains things. It doesn't justify anything.)

manga wrote:

I have to disagree that her exchange with Leetah showed the ugly side of conservatism. I've known many "liberal types" who were just as superior, intolerant and small-minded.

That's true enough, and I didn't put it quite as well as I hoped. I think what struck me is that her sticking point is about "oughts"--specifically the oughts of childrearing and mating--and she thinks that her way, the wolfrider way, is the only truly legitimate way. Moonshades a bit of a culture warrior, and I'll admit, that's an aspect of conservatism I have trouble with personally.

wingthing wrote:

There was that story in EQ2 as well, where Leetah talks about how the Wolfrider viewed her as selfish and possessive because she wanted to raise the cubs all by herself. The Wolfrider way is to share the upbringing.

Exactly. Leetah recognizes that they have different approaches to family, and while she prefers the Sun Villager way that she knows and understands, she doesn't need to call Moonshade out or prove her wrong. Moonshade tries to publicly shame Leetah OTOH.

Quote :

"Oh, so you'd choose Strongbow over Dart? No wonder your child wanted to be emancipated at 13!"

I thought it was especially jarring that Moonshade proclaimed her willingness to leave her child...in front of her child! Dart's right there in the panel. While the wolfrider style of parenting still seems harsh to me, it does produce results. Dart was fabulously confident, capable, and independent at 13. So was Crescent. Cutter was ready to be a great chief when he was practically a child. For the wolfrider lifestyle, that's a great result.

zadzi wrote:

It's funny, the scene with Moonshade's comment toward Leetah at Sorrow's End had me sort of disliking Moonshade initially for a completely different reason...I felt it was an expression of cold ambition

I think the subtext was there. IIRC, it's much more overt the novelization. Strongbow and Moonshade are basically the beta couple in the wolfrider pack. Strongbow was always snapping at Cutter's heels, and if it weren't for Cutter's fundamental confidence and strength, Strongbow might have won his challenge. Treestump may be the elder most often left in charge in Cutter's absence, but Strongbow is the actual chief-in-the-wings, I would argue, and I think Moonshade's proud of that.

I still love pre-FQ Moonshade. For a background character, Wendy and Richard treated her with so much care and understanding. She's heroic, tragic, ridiculous by turns. I'm wracking my brain to think of another secondary Wolfrider (aside from Strongbow) who's sketched with so much nuance and compassion. Clearbrook gets a big arc, but major things happen to her personally. Not so much for Moonshade. She's just a really well realized character sketch.

I love FQ Moonshade. Just chilling in the Palace, drinking a cup of Strongbow's tears... It's such glorious wish fulfillment, I can almost forget she bears no resemblance to pre-FQ Moonshade.

wingthing wrote:

Just chilling in the Palace, drinking a cup of Strongbow's tears...  

Bwahahaha!
Just got a visual of that in her moth fabric gown. I'm sure she never spills a drop either


I prefer pre-FQ Moonshade as well, as Wisp pointed out her character complexities. I especially love her more batshit moments in Hidden Years when she was freaking out on Ember.

wingthing wrote:

I'm sure many people interpret that as "it takes a village" and see it as a totally positive thing, but I shudder a little at the idea that the entire tribe has "a right" to horn in on the parent-child bond. And Moonshade's view of Leetah's priorities should be with her lifemate rather than her children... it always made me wanna get in her face and go "Oh, so you'd choose Strongbow over Dart? No wonder your child wanted to be emacipated at 13!"

And yeah, I know... seeing as I'd choose a dirty dishrag over Strongbow, my two cents are worth less than nothing in this debate.

Another way to look at it is "Children grow up and lead their own lives. Your relationship with your lifemate should be the priority." (I dont agree that this applies to leaving your small children for an uncertain about of time, but I thought it was worth mentioning.)

Rayek and Strongbow have always struck me as very similar in many ways, Wingthing, so your hatred for Strongbow bemuses me.

Because there's only room for one broody asshole in my heart, and I prefer the one with fashion sense.

Now, if the first time I met Strongbow had been in HY#1 when he had the fetish boots, the turned up collar and the sexy beard, loyalties in my heart might have gone differently. But those OQ booties, man... crime against nature.

Also the Way. The Way skeeves me out on so many levels.

You call the wearer of The Buckle Outfit the one with fashion sense? Lol. (Though his Sun Village and Rogue's Curse garb do kick butt.)

Let's not talk about fashion in OQ, mmmkay? I'm forever reminded of that most UNFORTUNATE outfit Moonshade made for Leetah, the bright orange and turquoise or whatever the hell that abomination was with the matching earrings. Had me wondering if that was some kind of passive-aggressive fashionstab.
The best-dressed bunch in OQ have always been the Gliders as far as I'm concerned.

Overly bright colors for some reason really offend me. I feel like my eyeballs are being molested.

Oh don't get me started on Redlance and his big ol' cannabis shirt from Hidden Years. Or anything he worse before, for that matter.

manga wrote:

You call the wearer of The Buckle Outfit the one with fashion sense? Lol.

But, see, this is how I can excuse the whole Time Warp madness. It wasn't Rayek's fault! The Buckles made him do it!

Okay, this isn't so much a specific moment as a general attitude.
Strongbow's constant "We should follow The Way!" Sure, I know it's an important part of his personality - for good and bad - but when you think about it, Strongbow himself isn't really following The Way either. Isn't an important part of The Way that you should live in The Now? Well, last time I checked live in The Now did not mean constantly complain about how things were much better in the 'good old days'. The Now is... now. Not 500 years ago.
And also his attitude towards Moonshade's choice, which of course is The Now; behaving as if it's some kind of personal attack towards him. Seriously, sometimes I just want to shake him by the collar while shouting:

"Get over yourself! SHE'S STILL EYRN!"

But I suppose the fact that I know Moonshade's soulname wouldn't sit too well with anyone...

For bad decisions, how about Savah's picking a place so high you would splash when you hit the ground for Cutter's Trial? Was there really no where else high enough to challenge him but not so high Leetah didn't have a chance to put you back together again?

Moonshade was the ultimate "stand by your man" woman-- and they did represent a classic conservative couple-- until recently.


This was Moonshade (until recently):

Stand by your man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMXnu31-k_U

This was Leetah (by contrast):

I beg your pardon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4wcNVbYOQ

Redhead Ember wrote:

Well, last time I checked live in The Now did not mean constantly complain about how things were much better in the 'good old days'. The Now is... now. Not 500 years ago.

yes!

Worst moments were when Blair dealt with my favourite character.

Haha, yeah! Blair's Suntop is really... all over the place, isn't it?

I think Bearclaw handled the human tribe in the worst way possible.
He rips a very small child away from it's mother and then hanged it somewhere.
At that point it's like poking a bunch of already enraged bees.
And he's known for that kind of behaviour? (I see where he got it from, tho)
And they're were somehow surprised when the humans' anger just kept escalating towards them?