Final Quest #11

Blame Wendy for this thread becoming a discussion about Wolfrider 'junk', Redhead Ember!

It's true (or so I hear)-- she started it on Facebook.

You know... I was rereading 11, in light of our enlightening conversations... and I realized, yeah. This does suck for Skywise (as a character). Hooking up with Timmain is huge. You'd think he'd get at least his own spread devoted to it. But no-- it's like, half a page-- and then Windkin-- and then we get back to how Cutter feels (super good)-- and then... we totally forget that Skywise had a major moment because now it's all about Cutter's amazing twin connection with Timmain which, like, nobody can top. What? I guess I know how Manga feels now with the Cutter/Rayek thing. I kind of always hoped SKywise would get a little individual development-- but the story is just slapping him with his sidekick status. (Seriously, Skywise , sit down-- this just isn't about you!)

Another lurker (mostly - I think I posted in the Intro thread a couple months back), de-lurking to whine. Yay, me!

I'm going to liken myself to Strongbow here and say this: I feel as though my long-term relationship is coming to an end. I'm watching my "partner" (EQ) change in ways that just aren't compatible to us having a relationship anymore, but I'm hanging on because I want to see it through. I'd feel like I were giving up on something that was important to me at one point, even though I have to admit, I'm just going through the motions right now.

The recycled artwork doesn't really allow for the natural little gems that were hidden in the background - characters chatting behind the scenes, doing cute little things for each other (Pike and Shenshen, anyone?). The plot's pacing is so scattered that I can't figure out how much time has passed, and character development is herky-jerky. The Dart/Mender thing, for example. There was no gradual buildup to make us go, "Finally! YAY!". It was dumped in our laps.

The big reveal was just way too WTF-y for me. I don't really care how they resolve it, because I've kind of given up. I know that we'll have something else dropped on us that we didn't expect (read: makes little sense), and I'll be expected to go, "OOOOHHH! THAT'S WHY!"

Feh.

Timmain seems to have turned completely sinister at this point (or, at the very least, I HOPE she has, because it may make a bit more sense!), Skywise and Leetah have been lobotomized, Nightfall and Redlance may as well not exist... Gah.

At any rate, there were things I really liked. Dart opening up to Mender, Oddbit's insecurities, Cutter calling out Skywise and Leetah, Strongbow's pain... I just don't know if the little niceties are enough to keep me vested in this relationship.

I'll stay to finish it out, but dang if the parallel between Strongbow/Moonshade and me/EQ isn't a strong one.

And I'm not going anywhere near the junk discussion... LOL.

i distinctly remember the panel of Mender being born and...yeah, it seemed like normal humanoid parts. reminded me of when i was babysitting for a neighbor and had to change their something months old son's diaper. IS THIS ANOTHER RETCON WENDY?

and i suppose i could see the hair on the private parts...hell, wolfriders grow beards when other elves don't, so why not?

I doubt that pubic hair falls into Wendy's idea of beauty. Shouldn't female Wolfrider have some too? Or some fur in the armpits? Nah, elves are immaculate, right down to their penis-knots

I r always been surprised at how little body hair the wolfriders seem to have. It would make so much sense for them to be fuzzy.

I was just double-checking something in the issue, and the coloration of some of the characters' eyes really leaped out at me. Specifically Mender and Timmain have a weird effect where their irises are almost indistinguishable from the pupils and the whites of their eyes. Skywise, Leetah, and Moonshade have similar coloration in various panels. It looks so strange, and I think it contributes to the weird flatness of the characters' expressions. I also don't understand Timmini's eyes at all, anatomically speaking. Why are they rotated 90 degrees? They're so slanted they're practically up and down and so wide set I have trouble grasping the geometry of her face.

I noticed that Wendy also often goes to great lengths to avoid drawing lower bodies/hands. Especially in scenes with multiple characters, she'll often stick a bush or tall grass in front of a character, so all you can see is their face and a bit of upper body. I think this is probably a time-saving technique, but it always jumps out at me. In places, I think she reuses the upper body from other panels and then quickly adds lower limbs. For example, the full-body Leetah on the right-hand panel on pg. 16. Her upper body and face look pretty good, but what the heck happened to her hands and everything below the waist? It just looks really rough and sloppy. I think a lot of these issues could be saved by having fewer characters make appearances in the background. Wendy complains on Facebook about all the crowd scenes...but she's the one who decided to draw them in the first place! It does nothing for me to see Treestump and Clearbrook's heads popped into the back row of a crowd, or to have cut-and-pasted Tier and Brill randomly slotted in.

To respond to an older part of this thread, I don't hate the Wavedancers. I don't know much about them because they're so numerous and so little explored in Discovery and the subsequent work (I did read the Wavedancers series back in the day, so I know a little more about them from that). They are basically being reduced to an inelegant plot device, however, which is a wasted opportunity. They're clearly being set up as the new Go-Backs for the purposes of FQ--i.e. the body count. But given their established culture and their environmental advantages, that just seems ludicrous.

As for the issue of "junk"...I'm going to go with Lunakat's suggestion of hair. That makes sense, as it's been established that Wolfriders are "hairier" than the average elf given their wolf-blood.

I agree with whoever said that the problem with Moonshade's choice in this issue is that we (the readers) can't understand or really feel the temptation of the palace. I think everyone who's a fan of Elfquest has to have been attracted to the idea of the Wolfriders on some level. Their character design and culture is the central ingredient of the Elfquest world-building. If the Wolfrider's look and lifestyle don't grab you, you probably won't continue reading (which doesn't mean that the other tribes aren't equally fascinating, it's just that the Wolfriders are the reader's entree into the EQ universe.)

On the other hand, nothing about life in the palace is compelling. The Sun Folk have been neutered culturally by their transplantation (dare I say, drained of all color?) No more festival of flood and flower, no lanterns, no domed houses, no arts and crafts, no desert adaptation, no distinctive cuisine, no zwoots. Most of them are wearing preserver silks, so even their costumes have become less varied and "tactile". They're learning about magic, which apparently means standing around in circles with impassive expressions and a rainbow-light filter applied over everything the scene. While this is aesthetically displeasing and graphically inert, the biggest crime is that it doesn't feel magical to the reader. Recall the scene of Redlance working his first bit of treeshaping magic in the Sun Village. There was more wonder and enchantment and character development (for Redlance, Nightfall, and Minyah) in that tiny little sprout than in all the photoshop layers Wendy can muster.

So what's Moonshade's choice? She could be riding around on a wolf (!), living in a tree (!), making amazing-looking clothes (!). I wanted to do all of those things from the very first time I read EQ. Or she could wander around the palace (boring), in a pretty silk dress (generic), staring at the scrolls and communing with the dead (dull). I have never once felt the smallest desire to project myself into her life in the palace. So when she chooses that existenceforever, I understand the decision intellectually, but not emotionally.

Immortality is a tricky thing in literature. It's something that most humans contemplate (because most of us have visceral anxiety about the possibility of our eventual non-being,) but there are very very few examples in fantasy or speculative fiction wherein it's depicted as an unalloyed good. Most immortal characters either go mad, lose touch with their morality in dangerous ways, long for death, or need to be killed by the heroes. While many of the elves in the OQ were technically immortal, life on the WoTM was so dangerous that very few actually managed to stay alive over the long term. That's why characters like Savah were so special to the Wolfriders and Sun Folk. And the closest thing we had to real immortals (along the lines of what's apparently happening in the palace in FQ) were the Gliders of Blue Mountain, who were clearly presented as stagnant, bored, and moral ambiguous. Blue Mountain was a classic depiction of immortal life--characters that have lived so long that they lose touch with the world and their own vitality. The reader immediately understood the Gliders for what they were--a sad counterpoint to the life-embracing worldview of the Wolfriders.

I think this all gets back to the crux of an argument on the old SoC forum, when Richard kept insisting that reader reception is not a consideration in how he and Wendy are telling FQ. Frankly, at the time I thought he was just a defensive bullshit artist who didn't like being called out for a tone-deaf line. After all, what kind of writer doesn't consider how his or her audience will receive their work? But now, I almost believe he was telling the truth, because clearly neither he nor Wendy have taken a second to ask themselves: why is EQ successful? What attracts readers to our work? What parts of our world-building are the most compelling and inviting, and how can I do more of that? Obviously, there needs to be innovation and growth in the telling of FQ, but not to the extent that we lose sight of the core strengths of the story and its unique universe.

I hope and pray Luna's right about the "hair down there", but didn't Wendy say it was something specific to male wolfriders, and specific to their penises?

sun girl wrote:

I hope and pray Luna's right about the "hair down there", but didn't Wendy say it was something specific to male wolfriders, and specific to their penises?

Most mammals have a bone in their penis that is involved in erection. I think humans might be the only exception (correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe the wolfriders have this bone and the immortals don't.

Or maybe it's a question of naturally circumcised vs. foreskinned? Or it's the hair...maybe the wolfriders have three balls (an extra one for the wolfblood).

Maybe I'm spending way too much time thinking about this.

Lunakat wrote:

I r always been surprised at how little body hair the wolfriders seem to have. It would make so much sense for them to be fuzzy.

Part of my brain is convinced that Treestump has a hairy chest. I dunno why.

@Wisp, you make some excellent points, especially about immortality and Moonshade's choices in general. I love how you say the Sunfolk have been 'neutered' (perfect word in this case). It's all well and good in theory to connect with this magical palace etc., but after a while it just comes off as cultural bleaching.

I think you're also correct in what you said about Richard's reaction. Maybe he was just saying that he felt that the story's 'integrity' is more important that fan's reactions. That they had 'a vision' and that was ultimately more important than anyone's two cents.

m0nkeyh0use wrote:

Another lurker (mostly - I think I posted in the Intro thread a couple months back), de-lurking to whine. Yay, me!

Hope to see more posts!

m0nkeyh0use wrote:

I'm going to liken myself to Strongbow here and say this: I feel as though my long-term relationship is coming to an end. I'm watching my "partner" (EQ) change in ways that just aren't compatible to us having a relationship anymore, but I'm hanging on because I want to see it through. I'd feel like I were giving up on something that was important to me at one point, even though I have to admit, I'm just going through the motions right now.

That is an excellent reference. (And you're definitely not alone!)

m0nkeyh0use wrote:

The big reveal was just way too WTF-y for me. I don't really care how they resolve it, because I've kind of given up. I know that we'll have something else dropped on us that we didn't expect (read: makes little sense), and I'll be expected to go, "OOOOHHH! THAT'S WHY!"
Feh.
Timmain seems to have turned completely sinister at this point (or, at the very least, I HOPE she has, because it may make a bit more sense!), Skywise and Leetah have been lobotomized, Nightfall and Redlance may as well not exist... Gah.

Yes, given in to your anger, feel the dark side of the Palace...

Lunakat wrote:

I r always been surprised at how little body hair the wolfriders seem to have. It would make so much sense for them to be fuzzy.

Agreed. Always wondered why the Wolfriders lived in trees too. Because... Wolves don't. Which is why, in my own tribe fanfic thing - Stonehowl - they live in... get this! Caves and dens! Like wolves.

sun girl wrote:

I hope and pray Luna's right about the "hair down there", but didn't Wendy say it was something specific to male wolfriders, and specific to their penises?

Just to throw this out there - didn't Wendy draw a piece where Dewshine, Nightfall, and Moonshade lure a human to quicksand - and they're naked and fuzzy below?

EDIT: Actually, it was a vine in front of Dewshine I was thinking of.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e1/43/b9/e143b95a49a18c45bd26e1f27c07231b.jpg

That scene never made sense. Like, first off, I feel like it would kind of go against the Wolfriders' idea of sexuality, and secondly, I feel like the human would just be repulsed.

It also goes against the "we're just innocently trying to go about our lives" claim. That scene would be three elves working in concert to murder one human.

manga wrote:

It also goes against the "we're just innocently trying to go about our lives" claim. That scene would be three elves working in concert to murder one human.

The vast majority of Bearclaw's career also goes against that claim, not to mention whatever his dad did to earn his name (can't remember cuz I never bothered much with Mantricker's stories in the BOTC novels/comics).

kathleen3.0 wrote:

That scene never made sense. Like, first off, I feel like it would kind of go against the Wolfriders' idea of sexuality, and secondly, I feel like the human would just be repulsed.

Why do you think a human would be repulsed?

That scene never made it into the story, so maybe Wendy realized it didn't really fit with the elves' ethos.

So has anyone suggested that Cutter needs to come up with a rendition of "Im my own Grandma...?"

Paranthropus wrote:

kathleen3.0 wrote:

That scene never made sense. Like, first off, I feel like it would kind of go against the Wolfriders' idea of sexuality, and secondly, I feel like the human would just be repulsed.

Why do you think a human would be repulsed?

That scene never made it into the story, so maybe Wendy realized it didn't really fit with the elves' ethos.

Because, realistically speaking, the elves look like bat-faced little aliens. Like, were used to cartoons like this, so we automatically associate them with cute, but if you met a real one, I doubt you'd think they were all that pretty.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Paranthropus wrote:

kathleen3.0 wrote:

That scene never made sense. Like, first off, I feel like it would kind of go against the Wolfriders' idea of sexuality, and secondly, I feel like the human would just be repulsed.

Why do you think a human would be repulsed?
That scene never made it into the story, so maybe Wendy realized it didn't really fit with the elves' ethos.

Because, realistically speaking, the elves look like bat-faced little aliens. Like, were used to cartoons like this, so we automatically associate them with cute, but if you met a real one, I doubt you'd think they were all that pretty.

I don't know, if I met Nightfall... I'd forget I was married! Er... I mean... yeah, totally... disgusted...

Kidding aside, the main reason I think that picture has never made much sense is because the humans are shown as hating the elves - so it would stand to reason that the human would look to kill the elves, rather than be sexually drawn to them. (But then, three beautiful naked women - we men are weak, and don't always think with the head on our shoulders... especially primitive humans... who are far less "sophisticated" than us... and more primal...)

kathleen3.0 wrote:

Paranthropus wrote:

kathleen3.0 wrote:

That scene never made sense. Like, first off, I feel like it would kind of go against the Wolfriders' idea of sexuality, and secondly, I feel like the human would just be repulsed.

Why do you think a human would be repulsed?

That scene never made it into the story, so maybe Wendy realized it didn't really fit with the elves' ethos.

Because, realistically speaking, the elves look like bat-faced little aliens. Like, were used to cartoons like this, so we automatically associate them with cute, but if you met a real one, I doubt you'd think they were all that pretty.

Hahahahahahaha!

You know after being told and I guess brainwashed somewhat for 30 some odd years by Wendy and Richard that the elves are the epitome of beauty, I guess I've never really looked at them too objectively, but I think you're right.

I dunno ...I am recalling that one scene in Wildhunt with Lehrigenwhatever and his small band of young apprentices. The one young guy goes out to a tree to take a leak and then Dewshine shows up pretty much naked and the human thinks she's pretty hot:
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=WH&p=312


Later, Lehrigen captures her and holds her face in his hands (handling her coldly like admiring a sculpture, it said) and calls her a beauty, and guesses she was the one that showed up while the kid took a leak.

So I think they can sort of be regarded as deadly sirens or something in their 'otherworldly beauty', or that is the intent.
Even the humans in Blue Mountain thought Winnowill was beautiful and all the 'spirits' were. Not seductive in that context, but still otherworldly in their beauty.

And the woodcutter thought Tyleet was quite lovely too, I think.

So I really don't know if the humans are repulsed. More than anything, they seem conflicted. If they regard them as 'demons' then it's possible they associate them with being tempting as well.

When the portfolio with that picture came out, in a letter column of the comic, Richard made a comment about it: "For those of you who expressed concern about the man in Plate One: he's mired, but he isn't sinking!"

Remember that the High Ones shaped themselves to awe the Middle/Dark Age humans whose legends and art made them think other Coneheads had stopped by before them. I think human reactions would vary. Nonna, the Hoan G'taysho, the woodcutter Tyleet befriended, Lehrigrin, even Angrif found the elves beautiful or attractive. From the first novel, though, Strongest Man found their frightening and alien.

Some members pointed out, that a change in character is normal after all these years (Moonshade), which is certainly true for humans, but not for (most) elves. Almost no elf had a change in character since s/he was first introduced, with the exception of major characters.
It would've been more in character if Nightfall would have decided to stay in the palace (she wants a world without humans/pain, also think of her dream). The drama could've been that Redlance supports her decision, but says, he wants to stay in the father tree after death (so she has to decide to break up the relationship or not).

Moonshade has gone deep under-cover to infiltrate the Timmain cult. She's watching for signs that Cutter's been brainwashed so she can spring into action with a daring rescue/intervention. Leetah and Strongbow are in on it, but since sending can only contain truth, Leetah had to alter their minds.

Wasn't the whole point that that claim wasn't true? Neither side left the other alone.