Final Quest #12

Haven't all the previews been of the first few pages of the new issue? Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but there may not be any intention behind it being THESE pages revealed if they happen to be the first few and that's what the previews show.

Here's what I'm hoping about the Timmain/Tam reveal: I hope that the 'unique' element of their situation is simply that Timmain was alive at the time of the split. We've been shown countless images of firstcomers and other early elves who resembled the current cast so closely that sometimes it takes a moment to sort out who's who (at least for me!). I mean, my personal favorite page is explicitly designed based on the premise that current elves bear striking resemblances to their ancestors! In other places, it's clear that not only appearances but also powers, personality traits, and other details are held in common between ancestors and their lookalike descendants.

So what if, as is made clear by the flame/all fire, water/all water analogy, all elf souls are tightly connected, but not direct reincarnations. A 'seed,' perhaps, of an early soul might splinter off to become the first spark of a new one. The two will be very similar--the same type of plant in my analogy, perhaps even genetically identical in terms of the soul--but the new soul is shaped by a different life, different conditions, and over time differentiates itself from the original that it started out part of. That would mean that the original soul is still there, and a distinct entity (Timmain's Original Quest "My friends!" line), but their various splinters grow into their own individuals later while maintaining close ties to their past.

While I'm not sure I buy that it was planned from the start that way, it would be a very neat way to wrap up loose ends and explain the frequently repeated archetypes.

No, a couple previews have skipped over the first couple of pages. The main instance that comes to mind is the discovery of the abandoned village that Ember's tribe has moved into. The previous issue ended with a gasp as they flew over the mountain (or hill) in a palace pod but the skipped over the reveal in the preview.

I think I like your seed idea, Cloudbuck, but if the elves are immortal, then where do other elf spirits come from? Are they all only seeds of the first comers? Where are the spirits of the billions of proto-High Ones who lived before they developed immortality and magic?

As far as the preview, then, I'm stumped. It does seem like an odd reveal to give early.

I don't know about the very very first conehead souls, but all current elf souls are tied to the Palace, which is a chunk of their original homeworld. Other coneheads from the same time period could be tied to their little chips of original rock, so they might be anywhere in the universe as long as they have their own shell in the vicinity. As for where they started... pure speculation, but in the original scroll-reading we see Timmain talk about a time when the original high ones tried out living as pure spirit. That time follows the original nature of the coneheads as more human-like, using tools and smarts instead of magic, and represents a time when they were exploring and learning about the magical potential.

Maybe the 'original' collective soul started then--a melding of all individuals up to that point, part of the exploration of what they could do with their power. They could be totally one, seamless and eternal, but then chose to split up into bodies and enjoy physicality. In choosing not to inhabit the all-in-one-soul-pool, they could have broken up into separate souls that had a link, but represented different parts of the whole. Timmain specifies that she was alive at that time, so she could very well be part of the group that formed the original 'seeds' from the collective soul.

I like your idea. But we've seen a lot of "ghosts", elves that are still individuals after they're dead. Are they both that (individuals) and at the same time part of some "collective soul"? If so, it doesn't really matter if Cutter is made from a bit of Timmain... But it seems to matter here. Or is it just the fact that they are both alive with that shared soul which is unusual? (sorry, thinking and writing at the same time)

manga wrote:

but if the elves are immortal, then where do other elf spirits come from?

Yeah, where do you start when you never end.

My poor head...

Well, as Rayek put it back in KoBW; Any spirit is all spirit. Perhaps spirits in the Palace are constantly merging and splitting up, giving spirits the ability to "step out of" the spirit pool and retain their previous identity, but also be part of the whole and merge with other individuals, as when several of the Go-Back spirits merged with Kahvi during Teir's rescue.
As Miscellaneous just wrote; perhaps what unusual about the Timmain-Tam connection is that the spirit that became Tam split off from a spirit that was already attached to a physical body.

As for why the preview show those particular pages; perhaps it's the only pages they could show.

Ember, the idea that the rest of the pages are WORSE is not one that brightens my day.

Except, that we've always seen the spirit in the palace as individual. They seem to hang out in the spirit pool without being completely subsumed by it. There's no indication that individual spirits disappear or split themselves in half. I think that those who knew them would have noticed. Wouldn't part of them be missing somehow?

You know what part of herself I bet Timmain gave Cutter? Her personality.

*chuckles* I don't think that was Red's point. ^^

I've wondered the same ... If the soul sharing of Cutter and Timmain is the BIG gamechanging revelation, why is it given away in the preview? My immediate thought was: What comes after this? Is a more important part of the story still hidden in issue #12? And ... what could it be ...?

I see two possibilities:
1. What happens with Cutter after those new insights? He freaks out - so much we know. But WHY exactly? Is there more than the soul sharing that disturbes him? And when I've understood the teaser of issue #13 right then Cutter will disappear. Why? Where? What possible evil happens to him after Timtam?
2. What about the Wavedancers? Will the Armada attack with brutal force like cannons and haropoons? Water bombs? Or a biological weapon like it was used in the old storyline with Ardan Djarum? Are the Wavedancersw prepared at all? How well? Issue #13 preview already told that the Armada attacks peaceful villagers. Because the Wavedancers try to find rescue on the shore? Or do they hide well and the anger hits the villagers?

I can't help but think it's Darkhorse going 'well you seem to be driving your own series into the ground. Let's help.'
It is going to be interesting to see what Cutter goes on to do.
Still kinda hoping for some kind of council with either his parents or the old chiefs.

Shadowpath wrote:

Still kinda hoping for some kind of council with either his parents or the old chiefs.

That would be really cool to see!

Lunakat wrote:

You know what part of herself I bet Timmain gave Cutter? Her personality.

YESSSSSSSS!

Shadowpath wrote:

It is going to be interesting to see what Cutter goes on to do.
Still kinda hoping for some kind of council with either his parents or the old chiefs.

I would really love to see this. It would make a worthwhile read, and just makes sense to show.

Cloudbuck wrote:

As for where they started... pure speculation, but in the original scroll-reading we see Timmain talk about a time when the original high ones tried out living as pure spirit. That time follows the original nature of the coneheads as more human-like, using tools and smarts instead of magic, and represents a time when they were exploring and learning about the magical potential.

Maybe the 'original' collective soul started then--a melding of all individuals up to that point, part of the exploration of what they could do with their power. They could be totally one, seamless and eternal, but then chose to split up into bodies and enjoy physicality. In choosing not to inhabit the all-in-one-soul-pool, they could have broken up into separate souls that had a link, but represented different parts of the whole. Timmain specifies that she was alive at that time, so she could very well be part of the group that formed the original 'seeds' from the collective soul.

Rahnee the She-Wolf's mother Valloa/Murrel/New-Wolf says something very similar in the first "Blood of Ten Chiefs" novel.

"First there is the name-always the name. Your own name, your lover's name, your child's name. When our people-Timmain's first people, the ones from high in the stars-were where they belonged, they knew each other by their names because their shapes changed with their moods. Names passed instantly from one mind to another and when the names joined, sometimes, a new name was created. I don't understand how-Timmain couldn't ever explain-but it wasn't like this."

Lunakat wrote:

You know what part of herself I bet Timmain gave Cutter? Her personality.

*Snorts tea gracelessly out of my nose, laughing...*

That explains a lot!

Do you think maybe the Pinis are really just trolling us all? That they decided to kill EQ off once and for all with a spectacularly ridiculous end?

Lunakat wrote:

Except, that we've always seen the spirit in the palace as individual. They seem to hang out in the spirit pool without being completely subsumed by it.  There's no indication that individual spirits disappear or split themselves in half. I think that those who knew them would have noticed. Wouldn't part of them be missing somehow?

You know what part of herself I bet Timmain gave Cutter? Her personality.

Because the spirits we see are those who've 'stepped out of' the spirit pool. And no, part of the spirit wouldn't go missing, just like a flame doesn't became smaller when you use it to light another flame.
We only see a bare minimum of spirits, only those who are somehow connected to the present day elves; nobody has ever seen Ima, Guin or Tislin step out of the spirit pool.

Embala wrote:

*chuckles* I don't think that was Red's point. ^^

I've wondered the same ... If the soul sharing of Cutter and Timmain is the BIG gamechanging revelation, why is it given away in the preview? My immediate thought was: What comes after this? Is a more important part of the story still hidden in issue #12? And ... what could it be ...?

Exactly. Maybe those preview pages are actually the least revealing part of the issue, since they are technically only background information; how did Timmain and Tam end up as two parts of a whole? Showing what happened right after the end of the preview would probably reveal too much; where did Cutter run off to so quickly?
Besides; pretty much all the previews so far has revealed something:

1:
The Wolfriders attempt to stay within the Way, and Moonshade's displeasure with it; going to the point that she had taken up living in the Palace and wearing a preserver silk dress, as well as contemplating giving up her wolfblood.

2:
Krim's decision that this was the time for her to take the "last dance", and Pike's inability to just let her go. As well as Pike's thoughts that he might die too, leaving Sust the only one left of the family.

3:
The growing rift between Strongbow and Moonshade, but also the fact that despite it all they still loved each other dearly. Together with Cutter's and Leetah's worry for Ember and their decision to still honour her choice of not getting rescued.

4:
The aura of the Palace being a lot bigger than first assumed, and Windkin's question to Kahvi.
The fact that Angrif got the gun from Two-Edge, and that Ardam Djarum wasn't from the future, but just a nutter.
(Also the fact that Serrin is still alive).

5:
Kahvi's ability to form a pod faster than ever, with the help of other spirits who merged with her - because yes that actually happened - as well as her decision that Windkin should be part of the rescue team.
The final confirmation that Kahvi was Teir's mother.

6:
Ember's worry about the influence the Palace might have on the way.
Skywise's worry about what the loss of his wolfblood might mean for his relationship with Cutter.
Kahvi finally revealing what happened - even if she had a bit of trouble with the concept of time.
(In fact those pages that was skipped didn't really reveal much, other than the fact that there were some ruins.)

7:
Venka leading the Go-Backs and Windkin having gone off to find her in order to tell her what happened to Kahvi.
Aroree still being ashamed of what happened back during SaBM.
Two-Edge having made Venka's "dream-shield" real.

8:
Korafay's fearlessness and the fact that Reef is still haunted by the ghosts of his past.

9:
The fact that it would take 10 years for Angrif's fleet to be ready.
Windkin's assurance to Aroree that he's glad she caused him to lose his wolfblood.

10:
Aurek turning up again.
Ingen and Jarrah re-appearing.
Rayek's inability to let Winnowill be truly healed.

11:
The extend of Dre-Ahn's singing.
Timmain having somehow "heard" Skywise's words to Cutter.
A look into some of the other elves who'd arrived in the Palace, and Aurek having become the new Scroll Turner.
Oddbit's desire to have Mender make her more beautiful.

Lunakat wrote:

You know what part of herself I bet Timmain gave Cutter? Her personality.

Multi-Facets wrote:

"...Names passed instantly from one mind to another and when the names joined, sometimes, a new name was created. I don't understand how-Timmain couldn't ever explain-but it wasn't like this."

So... poor Cutter isn't a "new name" made from two? Or is he a mix of something new coming from Bearclaw-Joyleaf AND of Timmain? Coming from 3 rather than just two?

That's probably what I find most confusing about Timmain's whole reveal speech to Cutter. It makes sense to me that there might be this spirit pool where everything is shared but parts are able to separate and become individual spirits, taking the knowledge of that individual.

When Cutter says when he dies his spirit will live on but his body will decay away, she says, no, your body will live on in my body. I can see her being so close to death that part of her spirit was put into Cutter at the moment of conception, but physically, he would have to be the genetic offspring of Bearclaw and Joyleaf, otherwise he wouldn't have any wolf-blood.

So I think that every conception involves a little bit of the spirit pool being siphoned off into the new person, Cutter and Timmain's case being unique in that she wasn't dead, so instead of the pool being the source of Cutter's bit of soul, a bit of Timmain's was taken. I guess that makes sense with what she's telling him - that when he dies, his spirit won't be free to travel, it will rejoin with hers and be stuck in her body until she dies and her whole spirit returns to the pool.

So when he dies, he will just meld into her. Unless she dies, then he gains all her knowledge and memories.

Will their bodies actually merge?

I think it's what you said-- that he won't float around bodiless, but will come back to reside in her body. She thinks that's a nice thought-- because now he doesn't have to choose. He can live out his life on the World of Two Moons and die like a Wolfrider-- and also live forever in the Palace with his loved ones. He's clearly not so keen on the notion.

Outlier wrote:

And I'm sorry, I'm really smitten with a dark Timmain with sinister motives.

I would say that seeing Winnowill confront a dark, manipulative Timmain would be a hell of a fascinating confrontation. I really like that idea, actually. Some friggin' character development (FINALLY) for Winnie, and a "knock everything we thought we knew about Timmain on our heads" moment for us. As much as Final Quest is driving me bananas, I would *love* to see something like this.

Edited to add:
It would certainly explain Cutter having to get away and get his head straight for a bit. If the "Mother of the Wolfriders," the last high one, someone you've revered this entire time is now manipulating you and your loved ones, and orchestrating something that you feel isn't for the betterment of your kind, what do you do? How do you wrestle with that conflict?

And then what Hellfire do you bring with you when you come back?

[quote="manga"]

Vaeri wrote:

It was Rayek's soul that got displaced! He got bounced around in time (since it means literally nothing the elf spirits) and ended up born before Tatter/Timtam. It explains why he was the only Sun Villager who could figure out how to hunt even in the face of starvation and his conviction that he and Leetah were meant to Recognize! He's the true son of Bearclaw and Joyleaf!

Just sayin'... I too would totally read this story.

I would read that story too. I love me some Rayek.




As for Cutter, he's clearly disturbed about the whole Timmain thing and who can blame him. People bringing up the whole thing with souls and personality is confusing me because seriously, what part of him is a product of Joyleaf/Bearclaw's union, and what part of him is Timmain. Is Timmain saying he is just literally another part of her so totally and the other parts that are 'his' don't exist? And she thinks this is somehow okay to say, oh hey, you're not really you, you're just another version of me
And if he dies it'll basically be like a version of Being John Malkovich ? Existing in her , etc. I don't know if it would feel like he's 'returned' to a part of himself at all. Not by the looks of it. It's way traumatic. If Timmain dies then yes, he would have the knowledge etc., as another pointed out.
Which is why Timmain needs to die.

At the EQ FB page, they're using the image of Pike, well-shnookered under the dreamberry bush Redlance has grown in Sorrow's End and hiccuping "Perfeck," to describe # 12.

So we're fairly warned - you must be baked or drunk to enjoy the next issue.

Zadzi wrote:

Is Timmain saying he is just literally another part of her so totally and the other parts that are 'his' don't exist? And she thinks this is somehow okay to say, oh hey, you're not really you, you're just another version of me  

Yes, this is what I don't like. This diminishes both characters; it does not enhance them. But if Cutter is not "a cub who is all we [Bearclaw and Joyleaf] are and more" as Bearclaw said and Issue 12 quotes, then why say it? If he's just an offshoot of Timmain's soul, he's not "all we are and more." He's "all we are and less."

KR Wordgazer wrote:

Yes, this is what I don't like.  This diminishes both characters; it does not enhance them.

I completely agree!

Quote :

 But if Cutter is not "a cub who is all we [Bearclaw and Joyleaf] are and more" as Bearclaw said and Issue 12 quotes, then why say it? If he's just an offshoot of Timmain's soul, he's not "all we are and more." He's "all we are and less."

It does that make that statement particularly ironic. I wonder if Wendy Pini was aware of that when she put that moment, with those words on that page as part of Timmain's explanation? Or was she just completely innocent to the implications of it? (Wendy, I mean.) Part of Elfquest's charm has been it's utter earnestness, which sometimes, I think, has translated into a lack of self-awareness. This may be one of those moments.

Lunakat, I agree. I do also wonder if Wendy is conscious of how it comes off. And there's something about how it damages the narrative accountability in a way. That part must be unintended since it's a perception... maybe, having lived with the EQ characters for so long within herself, she doesn't see it as we do. It's just some amazingly magical, wondrous thing. Yay, he's part high one (that's a piece I don't get btw, and hopefully it will be further explained. When Cutter is thinking 'This is how I would be as a high one' and Timmain responds to his thoughts with 'You are'. How much of him is a high one, really. Obviously not in blood. I mean he's really not. He's mortal. Isn't he?...Really confused over here).

I really, really want a panel with Cutter talking to his parents.