Final Quest #12

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:34 pm

Miss Gillespie wrote:: Hey, it's really not that bad. We all know, that Final Quest will never be good, but the level of "being not good" upheld by this issue is kind of the standard (for FiQu). Yes, the arrangement of the characters is clunky, but it has never been 'not clunky' in FiQu, (including expressions and body language). Sure, the colouring is bad, but it's not as bad as in Discovery.

Do we?

Honestly; I love this issue. Love it in a very "I'm freaking scared now!" kind of way. I'm not so much scared for Cutter; he'll be fine. And even if he isn't... well... maybe it's just 'his time'.
No! I'm scared for Venka and Rayek! If seeing one random dude gets killed - I was certain he'd died long ago, but I'm kinda glad to be proven wrong - was enough to set Rayek off like that, what will seeing his daughter, one of the people who means the most to him, make him do?

wingthing wrote:: Do you think the publisher is actively telling Wendy "dumb it down for the new readers" or do you think that's her own choice to make EQ more "accessible"?

If she is she's also dropping hints for long-time readers to pick up on:
The fact that Serrin is alive, and the mentioning of her's and Dart's Recognition.
Kahvi mentioning Yif as one of those who'd had better deaths than her.
Jarrah and Ingen turning up again.
And now, the confirmation that Ahnshen is indeed alive and tailoring away in the Palace.

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Lunakat wrote:: I didn't notice that the art was recycled. It didn't strike me that way-- i guess I wasn't paying attention

That's because if you look too close you hurt your eyes.

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The recycled art is one of the things that bother me the most in FQ. That, and the bad storytelling. I feel like the Pini's have just not taken enough time to figure out how to tell the story, and it's also a bit chaotic.
The colors didn't bother me that much. Maybe that is because in the dutch translation the colors in Dreamtime are so horrible I suspect it was done by a monkey.
But despite that, I'm with Miss Gillespie; I don't think this issue is worse than the previous ones and I still enjoyed it.

And I really love plump mermaids!

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Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:47 pm

Tymber wrote:: Now, while I find it a huge Negative about the Cutter and Timmain thing; accepting it for what it is, I do like that Cutter's wolf blood is fighting it and urging him to survive. So if I have to take this story that Timmain is indeed a part of Cutter; I am at least thankful that Cutter seems to be acting like Cutter and fighting to be himself - which I think has always been a defining characteristic of Cutter. So I did like that exchange between Timmain and Aurek for that very thing.

I wonder... Cutter fighting to stay himself, to stay within The Way I guess you could say, could he have done that back right after KoBW? Back when he had lost The Way, even lost himself. Could he back then maybe have survived but lost Tam? But now, having healed from the too-long loss of his lifemates and cubs, could he find a way to define Tam anew? All he is, and only him.

Tymber wrote:: The end scene with Cutter, completely out of his mind, reminds me of the scene of when Madcoil emerges out of it's cave. Love that.

I guess you could say that Madcoil has emerged from its cave. The madcoil within Cutter's mind.
Maybe all elves carry a bit of Madcoil within them.

Madcoil

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Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:07 pm

Lunakat wrote:: I didn't notice that the art was recycled. It didn't strike me that way-- i guess I wasn't paying attention

''

Some recycling: Page 7, bottom left panel. I can't pinpoint where without digging out my other issues, but Leetah's head was absolutely taken from elsewhere (and I'm pretty sure was used several times previously as well but haven't documented it yet). And then on Page 8, top middle panel, it is the exact same image of Leetah with the forearms repositioned slightly (and in a way that makes them look really weirdly proportioned).

Page 9, bottom left panel of Timmain is taken from last issue and rotated, possibly the eyebrows are repositioned a bit. Also, I'm pretty Aurek's head in both the top left and the "Oh *gasp* the tearing away!" panel or taken from elsewhere.

Page 10, bottom left panel. Sunstream is taken from a panel last issue, so is Snakeskin's head, possibly the eyes are redrawn a bit. I think Brill is too but I can't prove it.

Page 10, middle right panel, Skimback is taken from the longshot of the underwater coral palace from last issue, just much larger (or vice versa, I dont' know what order these are being assembled in).

Page 10, bottom right panel. Sunstream has been taken from someplace else, can't pinpoint it.

Page 12, top panel, my nemesis. Korafay is taken from a few issues back, recolored and rotated about 90 degrees in a way that throws the perspective really, REALLY off. Sunstream is recycled from several issues ago (and this particular image of him has gotten lots and lots of play); moreover, all of the limbs have been repositioned in photoshop but it doesn't work.. This is the second time that image of Brill has been recycled with some facial features redrawn slightly, but the shading is out of context and not good. I think Snakeskin's body is new but his face is recycled.

Page 13, bottom right panel of Leetah. The exact same drawing from page 7 and 8 with the pupils of her eyes redrawn and the forearms repositioned.

Page 13, middle left panel, 95% sure that Aroree is taken from the previous issue and her limbs repositioned. If I'm wrong and they haven't been, she still looks awkward as hell. I think Windkin may also have been taken from someplace else, but it bothers me less because it's a really graceful drawing and I like it. >.>

Page 14 -- most of this page is fresh drawings, and it's one of the best looking single page of the issue in part because of that. But in the middle panel, Sunstream is recycled and looks out of place because he's shaded differently and his expression is so calm, and I think Nightfall is recycled too with her eyebrows redrawn to look more worried, but that sticks out less because the linework fits the rest of the image.

Page 15 -- middle right panel of Leetah, her arm is redrawn but the rest of the drawing was taken from last issue. (Also, in the left middle panel, I'm pretty sure Skywise and Nightfall were taken from elsewhere, but whether or not that's the case, those are hella awkward arm positions.) Also, pretty sure Dre-Ahn gripping Leetah's hand is recycled except for his forearm. In the crowd scene, I think Freetouch is recycled and maybe also Dart and Mender, but actually it's a pretty visually interesting crowd scene compared to a lot of others so I'll give it a pass.

Page 17, left middle panel, Most of Venka is recycled which is why her stance is so awkward, which is too bad because I really like how Rayek is drawn here. Most of the rest of the page is either new or put together skillfully enough that it's not too much of an issue, but in the bottom panel Petalwing is almost certainly taken from elsewhere and rotated, which is why the perspective looks strange.

I could go on, but I have to take a shower and I'm probably being kind of an ass going into this level of detail about it anyway. My apologies for hammering on this, it just really bothers me.

I do actually want to make a point of going through the issue and noting the panels I like as well, because like I said, there were some that I liked a lot.

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:44 pm

Erin, thank you! Exactly my thoughts... All this copy/paste and weird poses ruins everything for me. I wish Wendy would return to hand. Even if that would take double the time to finish. I think this is straight up mocking the original Elfquest. And Wendy's talent is slowly fading away

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:00 pm

Vapid is a really good way to describe Leetah's expression. I was a bit surprised at how unperturbed she seemed by Cutter's freakout. I had no idea it maybe was recycled. It stood out to me mostly because Wendy is usually really good at drawing facial expressions. Except for Timmain, who has that same bland stare.

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Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:05 pm

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:10 pm

Ohhhh visible examples! 0.0

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'We're all broken, in different ways, in varying degrees.'

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:55 pm

Yes, this is a rather depressing reminder.

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sun girl wrote:: Ah, now I've got it... I knew Hulk-Reef reminded me of something.

I was reminded of the same thing.

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Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:09 pm

I like your differentiated approach on this issue, Tymber. Very much appreciated. Smile

Tymber wrote:: Now I am not a big fan of the Wavedancers, so they already have that mark against them. And a lot of this next bit has to do with what little I know about Reef as a character - but his "change" into that "sea creature" shape just didn't do it for me. I don't see how that's a "finished" version of his broken self... So perhaps someone could shed some light on that and change my view of this shape changing thing he did?

I kinda like that Reef got a surprising developement. Tho I really hope this will be a case of "switchon/switchoff" ... I love his lean and slender elvin look too much! And his soft espression ... It would be a loss if this change turns out to be permanent.

I've tried to explain the "why" and "how" of this change to myself. Reposting from the FQ #12 thread:

IN CASE the events of the earlier Wavedancer comic are still (more or less) canon when it comes to Reef I may have an explanation.

Yes, Reef was shapchanged and mind-twisted by Winnowill after she was dropped on this small island by Tyldak.
This "old" Reef was a healer himself. I can imagine that Winnowill's attack and the later healing PLUS the influence of the Palace has triggered his own shapechanging powers. Unconscious tho - still traumatized like Reef is shown so far instincts easily take over when his people are attacked ... when his safety is destroyed again. He does NOT want to be a victim ever again.

*shrug* Just a try to make sense of it. Good chance Wendy proves me wrong. XD

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wingthingIt's mostly all been said, so I won't add to the rants, other than to remark: The dialogue really reminds me of some of those historical novels where clearly the author has been told by the editor/publisher \"Your readers can't follow all this without a cheat sheet" and so everyone goes around in the book talking about how "Did you see Richard, the Duke of Gloucester? I swore I noticed him talking to Warwick's daughter, Anne Neville, the late widow of Henry, Prince of Wales, our deposed king's son by Margaret of Anjou, who has lately come back from France." wrote:: Do you think the publisher is actively telling Wendy "dumb it down for the new readers" or do you think that's her own choice to make EQ more "accessible"?

I think when I went to buy this issue there was a link on dark horse to an interview with the Pinis where Wendy was talking about how she used to read Shakespeare when she was 4 and that was her greatest writing influence, so maybe she's trying to sound more like Shakespeare.

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I hate people who try to sound like Shakespeare.

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well...gotta largely agree with what people are saying. tons of jumping around. so here's my thoughts, impression and some of my reactions from reading the comic! in spoiler so people who dun wanna read it dun have to.

Reactions:

lots of bad art, bad coloring mistakes, and just...lots of WTFery.

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:16 am

Leetah's head looks bigger than her body now.

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Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:24 am

Tymber, where did you get the idea that Leetah knew Cutter's secret? I'm curious, because all I got out of that interaction was TImmain saying 'She knows Tam', which means she knows his soul. Which is of course more cryptic vague Timmain talk. So it still didn't seem at all like Leetah knew anything.

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Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:55 am

OK, so I hope this works, although it might be just way too small to show everything. But in all these images from just the last few issues, it's the exact same base image of Leetah's head and hair and sometimes more. Personally, I think that's way, way too many times to use the same image in such a relatively short number of pages. And IMO it's almost certainly a part of what's driving so many images of everyone standing in a line facing the camera in a 3/4 pose, because that's the easiest pose to reuse and adapt.

Additionally, it's not a great drawing of Leetah, IMO. :-/

It also has the effect (for me anyway) of making her hair feel plasticky because it's so often exactly the same.

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:58 am

And don't even get me started on Savah. She's almost always the same two drawings.

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:02 am

Redhead Ember wrote:: I wonder... Cutter fighting to stay himself, to stay within The Way I guess you could say, could he have done that back right after KoBW? Back when he had lost The Way, even lost himself. Could he back then maybe have survived but lost Tam? But now, having healed from the too-long loss of his lifemates and cubs, could he find a way to define Tam anew? All he is, and only him.

That may be the case. I just like - if his soul is part of Timmain - that there is at least a development out of it that I can at least appreciate.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Tymber wrote:: The end scene with Cutter, completely out of his mind, reminds me of the scene of when Madcoil emerges out of it's cave. Love that.

I guess you could say that Madcoil has emerged from its cave. The madcoil within Cutter's mind.
Maybe all elves carry a bit of Madcoil within them.
Madcoil

I am wondering if that was intentional (the reminder of Madcoil) - because, Cutter is obviously mad (as in crazy), and he's standing outside of a cave.

Embala wrote:: I like your differentiated approach on this issue, Tymber. Very much appreciated.

This was actually much funner to do it this way. So that even with Negatives and Postives - I could discuss both things (for example, the art in some areas - where I loved the art throughout the comic, but there were a few spots where I thought it felt off!) So it was fun to break it down like this.

Embala wrote:: I kinda like that Reef got a surprising developement. Tho I really hope this will be a case of "switchon/switchoff" ... I love his lean and slender elvin look too much! And his soft espression ... It would be a loss it this change turns out to be permanent.

My impression (we don't know what's going to happen) is that this was permanent. However...

Embala wrote:: Yes, Reef was shapchanged and mind-twisted by Winnowill after she was dropped on this small island by Tyldak.
This "old" Reef was a healer himself. I can imagine that Winnowill's attack and the later healing PLUS the influence of the Palace has triggered his own shapechanging powers. Unconscious tho - still traumatized like Reef is shown so far instincts easily take over when his people are attacked ... when his safety is destroyed again. He does NOT want to be a victim ever again.
*shrug* Just a try to make sense of it. Good chance Wendy proves me wrong. XD

If he is indeed a flesh shaper/shape changed by Winnowill; that at least gives it more understanding (for me). When did this happen? I may go back and read the story on the ElfQuest site.

Zadzi wrote:: Tymber, where did you get the idea that Leetah knew Cutter's secret? I'm curious, because all I got out of that interaction was TImmain saying 'She knows Tam', which means she knows his soul. Which is of course more cryptic vague Timmain talk. So it still didn't seem at all like Leetah knew anything.

Maybe I read it wrong; but when she said "She knows Tam" - and since the Soul Name bares everything - no secret is kept (or however it's phrased) - you would assume then, it stands to reason she'd know the "secret" of Tam's soul... as would Skywise. And anyone else who knew his soul name. Unless they're going to "retcon" the idea that the Soul Name bares all secrets type of thing.

But maybe Leetah didn't know; and this somehow, due to it's unique circumstances "circumvents" the idea that the Soul Name reveals everything about that person.

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This is interesting. I don't read faces and body language very well, so I never noticed this stuff being reused.

Subject: Re: Final Quest #12 Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:14 am

No story - just a flashback.

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So "Deep One" - Reef can help his tribe fighting against the Djunsmen like how? Scare them to death? Even if he's a shape changer it wouldn't help...

Cutter cutting Timmain off was a deus ex machina-off cutting. They needed a reason why he's not easily traceable even though it should be pretty simple (Suntop, the scrolls, Leetah's and Skywise's bond, Timmain etc.). And why is Teir qualified to lead Ember's tribe? Because he recognised her?

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I could be very bitchy and remark that he is better qualified than Scouter (who is supposed to be helping him). Teir never broke his word, left a wounded tribemate for death and risked the lives on 10 year old cubs in a futile war against humans.

If I were Ember, I'd leave Tyleet in charge!

PS: ah, the Lehrigen Cycle of Wild Hunt - now there was real conflict!

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How about Dart who actually used to lead a tribe? Teir lived alone for ages and I think he already said once, that he only cared for Ember, no one else

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