Final Quest #12

Zadzi wrote:

We can sit and sift through possible moments gleaned from the past in EQ and try to make 'sense' of it, but again, that doesn't change the very real probability that Wendy made this decision later and as a result it's undoing the very core who Cutter is and it's like an odd betrayal to the readers because she as a writer loses quite a bit of credibility in doing this.

EXACTLY. This is requiring far too much trust on the part of us, the readers. It's like I told my twin, "We're supposed to trust the Pinis know what they're doing and the story will turn out okay, but I dunno if I can."

This is the page that's hard to explain:

http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ13&p=24

and this:

http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ13&p=28

Why is it hard to explain? I mean, unless you meant for writing this hot new mess.

I think what Lunacat means is that this is the page where it is said that Cutter is a wolfrider to the core, and thus he cannot be a part of Timmains soul, since she is a high one to the core and not a wolfrider.
It looks like that part of Timmains core changed once she entered Tams body.  

This is hard to explain once you think too much about it... Maybe Zadzi is right and this is one of those "they are elfs so everything is different for them" things...

Deus Ex Elves-Are-Different?

I already have a headache today so I'm not going to delve into this too much.

However, I will say Aaaauuugghhh. Because it's my default reaction

Exactly.

This:

Sifra wrote:

I think what Lunacat means is that this is the page where it is said that Cutter is a wolfrider to the core, and thus he cannot be a part of Timmains soul, since she is a high one to the core and not a wolfrider.
It looks like that part of Timmains core changed once she entered Tams body.  

If Cutter were Timmain all along in his soul-- he wouldn't have Timmorn at the core of him. Winnowed would have encountered something else.

Lunakat wrote:

Exactly.

This:

Sifra wrote:

I think what Lunacat means is that this is the page where it is said that Cutter is a wolfrider to the core, and thus he cannot be a part of Timmains soul, since she is a high one to the core and not a wolfrider.
It looks like that part of Timmains core changed once she entered Tams body.  

If Cutter were Timmain all along in his soul-- he wouldn't have Timmorn at the core of him. Winnowed would have encountered something else.

Oh, right. I missed that one. I guess I'm not very good with cores...

sun girl wrote:

Deus Ex Elves-Are-Different?

Forgive me for suddenly dropping into the conversation. I just signed up after going through this topic, and I've got to say I'm a bit confused as to the, err, confusion that's going on here.

I mean, like most of you I don't know if I truly believe that this particular twist was planned from the very beginning of ElfQuest, but I can certainly see it being thought up as early as around Siege of Blue Mountain. Whether it's a sensible addition to the canon remains to be seen, but in any case...

Mostly I'm a little confused as to why this bit is tripping people up?:

Lunakat wrote:

This is the page that's hard to explain:

http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ13&p=24

and this:

http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ13&p=28

The narration seems to be talking more about Cutter's physical lineage/DNA than anything else. There is mention of his "Tam", but everything else points more towards the physical, as would make sense of a healer reaching in to find a physical or mental weakpoint.

Quote :

"That which Winnowill mocked--the taint of the beast in Cutter's blood--is now the source of her terror.

It is his Tam--all that he is--elf...wolf...the very core of his being.

She is drawn to it, believing it to be the weak spot most vulnerable to her.

Instead she finds that despite all her power, neither his mind nor his flesh yields to her will.

The wolf holds her in his jaws and will not let go!"

It's his mind and flesh that isn't yielding to Winnowill, not his soul.

If Winnowill actually got to his soul/soulname at this point, don't you think she'd have used it to her advantage like she did with Dewshine? This part always read to me like Winnowill believed the wolfblood of his body to be a weakness, since she considered the Wolfriders lower because of their "tainted" blood. Instead, the wolfblood actually gives Cutter a strong will to fight and live to the fullest.

And in any case, who says that the soul that became Cutter isn't a melding of the part that split from Timmain and the cub's soul that would've been there anyway with or without Timmain's soul fragment? After all, "Any fire is all fire, and any spirit is all spirit". Maybe his soul just took on the "Tam" name because, thanks to Timmain's addition, it was the most elfin part of him.

I dunno, though there are things that I find questionable about the Final Quest so far, I think for me this is far from a straw that'll break my back.

I guess you could look at it that way. I thought it had to do with his soul and whatnot because the text also reads "That which Winnowil mocked-- the taint of the beast in Cutter's blood-- is now the source of his terror. It is his Tam-- all that he is-- elf... wolf.. the core of his being." That sounds a lot like they are talking about his soul name and the core of his being. And I figured it had to to with Timmorn being in him because of the picture-- how Cutter's face is revealed to be a wolf's face with Timmorn in the center of it. As for why she attacked Dewshine and not Cutter-- I figured it was because she tried and he overpowered her. Dewshine just crumpled.

But maybe not... Maybe I was misinterpreting. Maybe that meant something else?



Welcome, btw-- please keep commenting. It's great to have a new person show up.

See, the thing about that for me is that if she'd gotten to his soul/soulname, she'd DEFINITELY have had an advantage as we can see with Dewshine. But yet...she doesn't. She's been rendered at a DISadvantage in that moment. And really, though she was probably the most powerful healer of all elves at that point, I don't think she was quite to the point of being able to claw her way to an elf's soul so quickly.

And thank you! I've been going back and forth with myself on whether or not to join for a while now. In the end I decided, hey, what's the harm? You all seem like a friendly bunch.

We're pretty friendly. We like new people! Thanks for joining!  

You have a good point. I guess it just seemed that way to me because of the mention of Tam and the core of his being being Timmorn. But it's possible to look at it differently. It just seems like a real revision of the character at this point--

I thought she went for the wolf-elf part of him because she assumed it was a weak point-- and found it was this blending that made him strong. But that it didn't just make him physically or mentally strong-- it made him strong in the core himself. Because he embraced it, and was it-- and it was born out of this struggle to survive-- and that the struggle, the sacrifice, the blending and the consequent survival of the struggle resulted in a strength that was passed down from Timmorn through all the chiefs straight to Cutter-- and that it was a part of the core of his being... namely, his soul, aka- Tam. That's how I have always understood that part of the story.

I thought it was a commentary on how the things that outsiders might see as weaknesses-- having endured a trauma or having a mixed heritage, etc.. can actually be the things that make us most strong and define who we are as people.

Cutter has always been presented as a particularly strong and internally, well balanced character-- someone who is down with his own bad self. Vs. Dewshine who has always been a bit more fragile. I never got the impression that Winnowil walked away with his soul name, either, out of that encounter-- but that the story was explaining who and what he was and why, aiming for that, she was defeated.

Lunakat wrote:

Welcome, btw-- please keep commenting. It's great to have a new person show up.

Welcome to the pack, Lurks! Enjoy and have fun. Seconds what Lunacat said!

*there are good reasons to be off topic at times*

Lunakat wrote:

I thought she went for the wolf-elf part of him because she assumed it was a weak point-- and found it was this blending that made him strong. But that it didn't just make him physically or mentally strong-- it made him strong in the core himself. Because he embraced it, and was it-- and it was born out of this struggle to survive-- and that the struggle, the sacrifice, the blending and the consequent survival of the struggle resulted in a strength that was passed down from Timmorn through all the chiefs straight to Cutter-- and that it was a part of the core of his being... namely, his soul, aka- Tam. That's how I have always understood that part of the story.

I thought it was a commentary on how the things that outsiders might see as weaknesses-- having endured a trauma or having a mixed heritage, etc.. can actually be the things that make us most strong and define who we are as people.

Cutter has always been presented as a particularly strong and internally, well balanced character-- someone who is down with his own bad self. Vs. Dewshine who has always been a bit more fragile. I never got the impression that Winnowil walked away with his soul name, either, out of that encounter-- but that the story was explaining who and what he was and why, aiming for that, she was defeated.

I think all that's still true with this new plot point. Whether his soul is "pure High One" or not, combined with his genetics he's still a blend of elf and wolf and still a descendant of a people who struggled to survive.

Timmain--for all her weird lack of emotion and highly questionable ethics--was also the most proactive High One that we know of, and the one who made a lot of sacrifices/took a lot of risks to keep her people in a survivable state. Basically, I don't think that Cutter's soul being part of Timmain's (whether partially or wholly) would lessen that drive and survival instinct in him compared to other Wolfriders.

Although...I do understand the worries of some fans that this makes Cutter less of his own character. The idea that he's been "predestined" to do great things because he is a part of a High One is an easy plot thread to get trapped into doing, writing-wise, and Wendy and Richard are not perfect.

And man, that whole wheel metaphor Moonshade made back in Kings of the Broken Wheel (http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=KOBW/KOBW01&p=9) is kinda ominous when you look back on it with all this in mind.

I'm willing to see how this will play out. Obviously Cutter's not going to take the news very well himself, though. Way to drop an existential crisis on him, Timmain!

Is it just me, or does Skywise Recognizing Timmain through Cutter make a shambles of their claim that Recognition is only the elves' brain lizards making genetically superior babies?

Thanks, Lurks. I guess that's a way to resolve that conflict!

@Manga-- Yes.

welcome lurks! of course watch out for me, i BITE. especially when i'm hungry. raaaawr! just kidding :p i'm nice and totally not evil and bent on world domination, i promise <3

anyway nice point! it IS an interesting thing to bring up...Cutter being the blood of ten chiefs, and another wheel starting...so it seems perhaps the Wolfriders will end with Cutter. i mean Ember is a chief now of course, but she's not THE chief. she may be the new wheel though.

manga wrote:

Is it just me, or does Skywise Recognizing Timmain through Cutter make a shambles of their claim that Recognition is only the elves' brain lizards making genetically superior babies?

Yeah, this adds a spiritual side to it that doesn't really work for me.

i think there was always a spiritual side-- since it results in two souls connecting. But yeah, it did seem before, according to the Pini's explanation- that it was about two people with the right genetics running into each other, and their primitive minds thinking "this would be a great physical union to produce excellent offspring." Like-- even though it had some spirituality to it, it was, at it's core, a physical attraction. I guess I agree.

So how to we rationalize Skywise and Timmain into this equation?

I always sort of thought that the elves, while they had a lot of sex, could never achieve orgasm and that recognition was like THE orgasm of their lifetime. The result of it being new life. Like they could only orgasm with one other elf and it's the elf they created new life with.
Spiritual and physical!

My lord that would suck. But it also kind of makes sense out of why the elves are such horndogs if that's the case - they keep having sex with everyone they see because they're so desperate to actually get off!

See? Exactly. That's why my theory is perfect

My guess was that recognition caused the female to ovulate.

Which would have made sense, especially given how Clearbrook talked about "feeling a stillness within" in the first novel, clearly meant to indicate that she was no longer fertile.