Final Quest #14

Lunakat wrote:

Ps-- I didn't mean to say that Dr Dre had the blue steel look. It's everybody else.

To me, he always does. Because he always has that pompous look.

Yeah, but this is 'Blue Steel':

Now look at, say... Nightfall:

Final quest pages

True enough, about Blue Steel, lunakat. I just meant it was very unchanging - like Dre's expression never changes. AGGHHHH it's all so vacuously pose-y from all of them, I dunno what's what anymore!

Lunakat wrote:

Now look at, say... Nightfall:

Final quest pages

Hey now! Nightfall is _always_ beautiful.

(Although I prefer her with the old top on her head, that covered all the top of her head)...

_wistful sigh_

So is blue steel! A look so beautiful it stopped a throwing star!

*Ninja* throwing star


Tymber, once you stop mooning, maybe you can look again at Nightfall and see that she looks like ...not Nightfall anymore.  She's just extremely blue steel and very expressionless - she used to be one of the most expressive faces in EQ. Not anymore. Must be the fillers and botox, maybe the facelift. Right?

Zadzi wrote:

Tymber, once you stop mooning, maybe you can look again at Nightfall and see that she looks like ...not Nightfall anymore.  She's just extremely blue steel and very expressionless - she used to be one of the most expressive faces in EQ. Not anymore. Must be the fillers and botox, maybe the facelift. Right?

I admit that no one tends to look as good as they used to. One of my complaints is that they've trimmed off the "fat" (for lack of a better word) off Nightfall, and now she looks like Dewshine (who has not an ounce of fat on her body!), where as before, Nightfall had wider hips, a fuller chest. Now, it feels like only Leetah is allowed to have hips and a chest, and everyone else is made to look the same, with different clothes on.

(Mind you, it wasn't her wide hips and chest that drew me to her ... I swear it! It was initially because Redlance was my favorite, as a plant shaper, and then when she stays with him in the desert in the Original Quest, that was such a tender moment, that I don't think I ever saw recaptured again, in the series... and the series had plenty of tender moments!)



I miss this.

I hear ya, Tymber. I love that desert scene too...I loved how completely dedicated Nightfall was there. And then after the war with the Go-Backs when they were getting the Palace back, that was also a wonderful moment. I've always loved how completely supportive they are of each other.
There are a ton of moments where you can see their love! When he's growing the dream berries in Sorrow's End, and Minyah or whatever is like, Dear Redlance you can't grow them here, and Nightfall is like whatever, you don't know my honey, watch him! And in other scenes where she says he's a master of the soft counsel, or something. She's always in awe of him. It's so awesome.


Nightfall and Redlance were the quintessential 'modern' couple, I think (the whole traditional role reversal thing, plus choosing recognition for themselves... they really were pioneers), almost contrasting Moonshade/Strongbow. How appropriate though that they are the ones that stay together in this whole  time, especially this time of huge upheaval, while the more traditional Strongbow/Moonshade are having change forced upon them since they resisted/remained rigid for so long, and it's torn them apart. Holding up their own perception of 'the way' was I think what drove a wedge, ultimately. Neither were prepared for it. Even Moonshade, all 'modern' as she may see herself now, still doesn't know how to wear it properly, I think. She's still not as comfortable in her skin as she could be.


As for bodies....  Yeah, they definitely trimmed fat - or is it just voluptuousness?- off all of them, haven't they. Actually, even Leetah too. You say she's the only one allowed to have that kind of figure, but imo she used to be more curvy too, I feel. Now she's just almost a little too perfect in a way I can't describe. And Leetah used to be my first favorite too, so I've watched her super closely probably without even realizing it. Dewshine was always a birdlike little thing, so I guess she's impervious to change.
And the boys too definitely look different. Like they need their own boy elf calendars....oh wait, they do    

Yes I agree that the character designs were so much different in the beginning of the series. I also loved the differences there were between all of the characters.
Nightfall looked so cute back then! I also don't like her without the cap or whatever you call it. She looks like a poodle now.

Zadzi wrote:

As for bodies....  Yeah, they definitely trimmed fat - or is it just voluptuousness?- off all of them, haven't they. Actually, even Leetah too. You say she's the only one allowed to have that kind of figure, but imo she used to be more curvy too, I feel.

Agree with all of you on the "slimming" of the elves.  One of the most amazing things about Wendy's early art is that each of the main characters (including all the wolfriders and many sunfolk, gliders, and go-backs) was instantly recognizable by their unique facial structure and body type, not just by their costume or hair, which is more typical in most comics.  In fact, if you look in the back of the EQ RPG book, you can find sample character sheets that include "mannequin" elves--bodies without clothes or hair. And guess what?  Even without hair, eye color, clothes, without anything at all really, you can tell which character each of those mannequins was based on.  Nightfall's body does not look quite like Leetah's body, although they are both quite voluptuous.

The streamlining of characters has been one of the biggest artistic weaknesses of the later work, IMO.   Characters that used to have more distinctive looks have become less distinctive.  New character design is generally weaker and more generic.  Would you be able to recognize Chitter without her purple eyes or stupid tail or anime hair? I'm not sure I would.  What about Brill?  Could you tell her body from, say, Spray's?

I agree with Tymber and Sifra that Nightfall looked better with her bandana hat, but it's not just that.  They had her in a headband and cap through the last few costume changes, and she still looked like an episode of "Botched" (a tv program featuring tales of cosmetic surgery gone wrong, for those outside the US.)  And I feel like it's been a while sinceI really groked Nightfall and Redlance as a couple.  They used to be fabulous, even through KotBW when they had Tyleet.  The scene of them holding hands while Nightfall gave birth was just lovely.  Sure, we usually see them sitting together, but there hasn't been a real window onto their relationship that I can recall off the top of my head.  In fact, their connection with Cutter seems to be more important than their long-standing relationship with each other in FQ.  Maybe we'll see more from them once they encounter the fungi elves  (I refuse to call them "the scary ones"--I don't think they're particularly scary, just different and interesting.)

Oh, and Sifra you nailed it with your revised picture of Leetah's rescue! It did occur to me when I read it that Leetah's cape wasn't behaving quite as it should. If the cape is attached to her outfit with the little sun clasps, there should have been substantial pulling at the shoulders when Dre-Ahn caught her midair. As drawn, it's not clear how she's being suspended. Frankly, it didn't bother me, however, because I took that scene as just a bit of slapstick/physical comedy anyways. It tells us a little bit more about Dre-Ahn and how he relates to his companions, and we get to chuckle a graceful Leetah being dangled by the scruff of her neck. It's played for effect, not verisimilitude. This, in itself, is pretty novel in EQ.

I liked the scene, too. It's nice that it's not all serious and heavy.
Altough I don't care much for Dre-Ahn.

Nightfall has looked like a victim of plastic surgery gone wrong ever since the pinup calendar in 1998, IMO. And I agree with Tymber - Nightfall never looked as good as she did back in those early issues when she was still buxom and apple-cheeked. Remember when her teeny top actually showed off a *gasp* soft tummy inside of cheese-grater abs? Ah memories...

wingthing wrote:

Nightfall has looked like a victim of plastic surgery gone wrong ever since the pinup calendar in 1998, IMO. And I agree with Tymber - Nightfall never looked as good as she did back in those early issues when she was still buxom and apple-cheeked. Remember when her teeny top actually showed off a *gasp* soft tummy inside of cheese-grater abs? Ah memories...

oooooh, I remember.... I remember well...

Er, wait - what? Um...

Heh - kidding aside, I am glad to see I am not the only one who has seen this. Not just Nightfall (but she is always going to be the one I notice the most) - but that all the women have lost their "individual" touch. I mean, you can still tell it's Nightfall or Dewshine or Leetah - but they definitely had more "characteristics" in their physical appearance, back in the day. And seriously - I'd wait to an issue every 3 months if that's what it took (though I doubt Dark Horse would permit it).

While I loved KOTB and SaBM - you can even see the change then, from OG. And yes, artists change their styles as they grow - but I feel like Wendy (who is still a damn amazing artist), did take a step back from what made her so incredible.

It's especially noticeable now in Final Quest, even in the males - before Cutter had the "V" chest, Strongbow had the skinny, but muscular chest, Skywise was pretty much two parallel lines down for his body - and now? They pretty much all have the "V" chest. So even the males, I feel, have lost their individual touches. But it's far more noticeable in females, because females have a far more... how do I word it?... delicate features? They have their chest, their rumps, their hair, even their eyes and lips - where as males, it was their body, their hair, and their eyes.

I dunno. I might be rambling.

Gah, that pin-up calendar was not kind to many of the characters. Nightfall looked like a body builder, and Kahvi looked like a body builder on the juice.

I think the overall slimming and generalizing of the elfin bodies (particularly the female bodies, although it's happening the men too, just as Tymber described,) was behind my visceral negative reaction to "high one" Moonshade on the upcoming FQ cover teaser. Moonshade always had a rocking "mom bod." I appreciate it even more now that I'm a mom myself! If you look at that old plate, "The Lure," you can see that she has slightly pendulous breasts, a soft belly, and plausible hip-thigh ratio. As far as elves go, she looks like she could be a mother of two. Nothing about the scene depicted in that plate makes much sense, but as a figure study of Dewshine, Moonshade, and Nightfall, it's invaluable.

There's something so disturbing about the utter "denaturing" of Moonshade's body on the FQ cover--breasts but no nipples, the figure of a freshly adolescent girl. There's a reason why elf crotches have always been covered in EQ: so that we can assume that everything's anatomically correct down there without having to actually inspect the goods. Now we see Moonshade's crotch and it's as smooth and impenetrable as a Barbie doll's. There's almost a sort of violence in the erasure of her femininity/sexuality/maternity. Maybe that's what Moonshade wants, as a character. Maybe she wants to be a perfect porcelain vase. But I hate it. A lot.

They did used to have plausible waists. Leetah only looks like she has hips because her waist is so tiny.

Yep to all. The new issue with Moonshade looking as she does is really off-putting in how ethereally creepy it is lol. I actually never looked at Moonshade's body at all but now that Wisp mentions how she was before... it's pretty amazing to see the difference.


On another note, i feel either Moonshade or Strongbow might die in the next issue. I'm probably wrong, but I'm getting a weird vibe about it.

Wisp wrote:

There's something so disturbing about the utter "denaturing" of Moonshade's body on the FQ cover--breasts but no nipples, the figure of a freshly adolescent girl.  There's a reason why elf crotches have always been covered in EQ: so that we can assume that everything's anatomically correct down there without having to actually inspect the goods.  Now we see Moonshade's crotch and it's as smooth and impenetrable as a Barbie doll's. 

Venka and Brill have also been getting the naked Barbie doll treatment under their Preserver gauze. It's very bizarre. When I think of the downright terrifyingly perky nipples on Ruffel and Maleen in that Heart's Way story - and let's not even get into Masque - Wendy has no problem drawing secondary sexual characteristics. Is it a coloring or shading problem - are those silks supposed to be rather less transparent that they appear? Because yeah, there is no way you should be able to see all those contours and yet no naughty bits.

I hadn't thought of Moonshade's "High One" form as looking freshly pubescent until you mentioned it, but now I can't stop seeing it. I wonder if the idea is that it's like she's being "reborn" - which... ugh, yeah, seems to erase all her 900+ years of life experiences. But I can't help but worry that is the intention - that we're supposed to feel Moonshade's making a terrible mistake and is becoming a sexless shadow of her formal self... who will probably die anyway, just to drive the message home. Because the first major decision where she defies Strongbow and chooses her own happiness over his HAS to be a mistake.

I pray I'm wrong.

Hey! I liked the perky nipples! What was wrong with that?

I prefer the perky nipples over the barbie-doll version anyday, anytime!

wingthing wrote:

I hadn't thought of Moonshade's "High One" form as looking freshly pubescent until you mentioned it, but now I can't stop seeing it. I wonder if the idea is that it's like she's being "reborn" - which... ugh, yeah, seems to erase all her 900+ years of  life experiences. But I can't help but worry that is the intention - that we're supposed to feel Moonshade's making a terrible mistake and is becoming a sexless shadow of her formal self... who will probably die anyway, just to drive the message home. Because the first major decision where she defies Strongbow and chooses her own happiness over his HAS to be a mistake.

I pray I'm wrong.

Moonshade has a very emotionless, scary look about her; she looks like she has entered a cult more than ever.

Lunakat wrote:

Hey! I liked the perky nipples! What was wrong with that?

Aside from my fear that Skywise would lose an eye? Ruffel's in particular looked like they could cut glass!

But yeah, perky beats Barbie-doll, no question!

Lunakat wrote:

They did used to have plausible waists. Leetah only looks like she has hips because her waist is so tiny.

Yes, I mean, they were always idealized and exaggerated, but you could imagine how the flesh was hanging on their skeletons. Now they're just little plastic people. Even their feet are always in the "Barbie arch" position.

I didn't mind Ruffel and Maleen's nipples either, although they definitely "stood out" <har har har> And you know, Elfquest was one of the only media properties I was exposed to growing up wherein breasts appeared for reasons beyond sexual titillation. I still remember that really early image of Rainsong nursing Wing in the Sun Village caves. Growing up where and when I did, that was probably the first time I'd ever seen a woman breastfeeding--in art or in real life! Stuff like that is why I'm still so attached to EQ after all these years. All these images seared into my little baby brain!

wingthing wrote:

I wonder if the idea is that it's like she's being "reborn" - which... ugh, yeah, seems to erase all her 900+ years of life experiences. But I can't help but worry that is the intention - that we're supposed to feel Moonshade's making a terrible mistake and is becoming a sexless shadow of her formal self... who will probably die anyway, just to drive the message home. Because the first major decision where she defies Strongbow and chooses her own happiness over his HAS to be a mistake.

If this is actually what we're headed for...I'll be so disgusted. The whole Moonshade plot line has the potential to hit a dozen landmines. If we're supposed to cheer for Moonshade's "new and more perfect [ugh]" body, we're headed into vigin/whore territory--spiritual perfection means a rejection of the physical/sexual, etc. And if her life choices are played off as selfish or a mistake, then she's right back to being the Tammy Wynette of lifemates, punished for not standing by her man. I'm just waiting to see whether they manage to thread the needle.

All this mostly-transparent clothing reminds me of something from a science fiction book I read a few years ago.  One of the characters was a woman from the wider galactic culture who found herself suddenly stranded on this strange, isolated and (mostly) technologically undeveloped lost colony world.  So there she is, running through the forest wearing something that, in retrospect, was probably a lot like Moonshade's dress: I.E.: mostly non-existant.  And she is totally baffled to find herself cold, scratched and dirty because she'd been taught that clothing was primarily for sexual display.  The idea that it might, you know, be USEFUL, was a revelation.  This character had also had her Achille's tendon's clipped so she had to walk on the balls of her feet (it's described as "en pointe" like the ballerinas but really, it's Barbie position) and again, it's a revelation that this might be problematic.

I'm just turned off by all the transparent clothes. I really feel that that the characters should either be naked or be clothed. The transparency is just "meh." Even Dart's outfit with the strange and weather-inappropriate man-boob cut outs makes more sense to me.

What I find disturbing about the Moonshade, and Palace in general, storyline is that they seem to be REGRESSING, not moving forward.  They're going back to the ineffectual, disconnected, clueless - ungrounded - behavior that got the High Ones stranded and killed in the beginning.  I feel like they should be taking the life lessons with them into the stars but they're not.  If anything, they're doing the opposite.