Final Quest #14

Lunakat wrote:

I think the easiest way to understand Strongbow and Moonshade is to picture a housewife married to a conservative man whom she loves and has always stood by. He doesn't change, even as the world changes around him. He is traditional and sticks to the values he has always understood and sees his family the same way....

She gets to a point when she has to decide what to do. Will she give it all up and go back to a life that now feels limiting to her and in which she had grown depressed because she loves a man who cannot change? Or will she choose the life for herself that she finds fulfilling and offers her new ways of looking at the world. Will she choose herself or him?
.

Yes, I think this is it in a nutshell-- but add the dimension that he still holds to the religion they both had when they were married, while she finds she can't believe that way anymore. To him this isn't about just wanting to stay in his old comfort-- it's that he truly believes in his path, that it's the right one, and she is forsaking it.

I'm actually friends with a couple that this is happening to. He wants to remain conservative in their religion. She has not left the religion but is choosing a more progressive form of it. He is trying to accept her new path, but just can't relate to it. I understand both their perspectives.

namuhna wrote:

As I said, part of my confusion is totally due to personal view of the world and romance. For some, probably most people, the choice between a mate and personal growth would be hard, for me it really, really isn't. Grow first, mate later. And if you haven't finished growing, leave mate until you are.

But no one ever truly stops growing and changing-- even if it's only changing to become more set in the path you have already chosen. One of the joys of long-term relationship is growing and changing together. For many people, having a long-term relationship is part of their personal growth-- it's not some separate thing that they enjoy on the side. The relationship with the other person becomes part of who you are.

KR Wordgazer wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

I think the easiest way to understand Strongbow and Moonshade is to picture a housewife married to a conservative man whom she loves and has always stood by. He doesn't change, even as the world changes around him. He is traditional and sticks to the values he has always understood and sees his family the same way....

She gets to a point when she has to decide what to do. Will she give it all up and go back to a life that now feels limiting to her and in which she had grown depressed because she loves a man who cannot change? Or will she choose the life for herself that she finds fulfilling and offers her new ways of looking at the world. Will she choose herself or him?
.

Yes, I think this is it in a nutshell-- but add the dimension that he still holds to the religion they both had when they were married, while she finds she can't believe that way anymore.  To him this isn't about just wanting to stay in his old comfort-- it's that he truly believes in his path, that it's the right one, and she is forsaking it.

I'm actually friends with a couple that this is happening to. He wants to remain conservative in their religion. She has not left the religion but is choosing a more progressive form of it. He is trying to accept her new path, but just can't relate to it. I understand both their perspectives.

Ouch-- that's hard. Yes, I think this dynamic can be said to apply to a lot of situations in which couples find themselves.

I think it is a very simple sounding -- but actually complex and difficult lesson to learn in life... that you can't change someone or shape them into what you want them to be... that you also can't prevent someone from changing. You have to choose either to love and accept who they are-- even though you may have differences. Or to let them go so that they can realize their own, individual potential-- the one they need to manifest-- even if it conflicts with your own values.

I had this happen too in a couple of relationships. My first boyfriend came from a very conservative family. I loved him, but had a hard time relating to them. I struggled with the idea (and this could have easily happened) that we might one day be in-laws. I finally realized that his family was a part of him-- and you can't ask someone to reject themselves or where they came from. I accepted that if I were to love him, I had to embrace them as well.

He ended up joining the military and being shipped overseas. I didn't want him to do this. I suggested any number of alternative options. But I know now that this was something he needed to do, because it was intrinsic to who he was. He would not have felt his life was complete without that experience. I couldn't ask him to be me anymore than he could have demanded that I be him. I love the man he turned into. I'm grateful that he was able to pursue his own path and I was able to pursue mine. We both did what was right for ourselves.

My next boyfriend had a similar thing happen. He hit a wall after we graduated college. He felt that he didn't know what direction he wanted to take in life. I thought we would walk the same path together-- because we had the same values, the same perspective and loved each other. But... he remembered that he had always had a childhood dream. He had wanted to join the peace corp. It became very important for him to have that adventure. I thought about it very deeply. I realized that I could talk him out of it or choose to go with him. But if I did, he would resent me and always wonder. And if I went, I would be doing it for his sake, not mine. I realized that we needed to live our own individual lives-- so we could know our own selves better. There is a song that goes "I don't know who I am with out you- all I know is that I should." That pretty much summed us up. He left and never came back. I'm okay with that. I was very sad. But I lived the life I was supposed to-- and so did he. And I'm complete in a way I wouldn't have been if we had stayed together-- and so is he.

My current boyfriend-- who I am marrying at the end of the year-- yay! He also needed something that I tried to prevent. I've dated a lot. I mean-- lots more than he has. I was his second girlfriend ever. We wanted to commit-- but he needed some experience. He kept wavering between the idea of marrying me and seeing other people just to know what it was like. So... we broke up. I was pissed as hell at him for that. But I understand why he had to do it. It's better that he got that out of the way. He can be satisfied now in a way he never would have been before.. because he would always have wondered. I didn't need to wonder-- I knew. And now I know he does too.

People just have to do what they have to do. When you try to prevent them-- the worst you can do is make them deeply unhappy, and the best you can do is stall.

If Strongbow could express a little bit of interest in....whatever the hell it is Moonshade is doing...then they *might* have a chance. Still no guarantee, of course. I've seen it with several other real life pairings as well - one person becoming really spiritual and the other person wondering what the hell is going on. Eventually, the partner tries to kind of go with the flow and expresses some interest in the 'recently liberated/converted' partner's perspective, and they grow together. Even if Strongbow simply accepts Moonshade's decision and expresses his own interest in her growth out of respect to her/their partnership, there's no guarantee that he'd be as into it as she is. And it's not just a new interest we're talking about here - she got rid of her mortal blood and decided to live in another place altogether. It's not, Hey come spend a few nights with me at the Palace. It's 'Come do what I'm doing or this can't work. It's a lot more extreme. I think that's why there's some compassion for Strongbow. Her changes happened internally in increments, perhaps...but the way it was externalized was not in increments - it was quite sudden. Boom, I live in the palace and don't want to be a tanner anymore. Boom, I'm getting my wolf blood removed. Boom, join me or that's it. And yet it's his choice? I mean, he's already not exactly the adaptable type. She knows this. And instead of easing him into it - she just did what she did. And no, I am not saying she OWED it to him - I am saying though that out of the two of them, Moonshade has always been the more adaptable one, and realistically speaking, in relationships the more adaptable person will be better at handling changing and therefor easing their partner into it. She has chosen to do for herself - maybe for once - and as awesomely liberating, etc., as that is, she's got to have some kind of awareness that he's not going to handle it well, and that maybe easing him into it would be best. But I just don't think she wants to at all anymore. And whatever, that's fine.

I just think the palace is goddamn boring which is why I don't 'approve' - Lunakat says the details don't matter, but to me they do. The palace is some big old shiny ass relic which is also a character obstacle as far as I'm concerned. If Moonshade were leaving Strongbow for someone else, you'd want to know who this elf is, what's so great about him. You'd want to see their chemistry, how they are together. To me, this is no different.

Lunakat wrote:

I think the easiest way to understand Strongbow and Moonshade is to picture a housewife married to a conservative man whom she loves and has always stood by. He doesn't change, even as the world changes around him. He is traditional and sticks to the values he has always understood and sees his family the same way.

She has been content for years to stand a step behind and support him. She has raised her children- they are now grown. The kids have turned out very diffferent from their parents. They go their own ways. She slowly finds that she is growing discontent with her life. She sees that people around her are making different choices-- going to college, having stimulating careers. She is discontent while he settles into his comfortable contentment with the way things have always been.

She begins to pursue her own interests-- taking an extension class here and there. She meets new people. She learns new things. She discovers the world is broader than she suspected. Her mind is stimulated by what she is studying. She decides to commit herself to her studies which become her passions.

He stays the same. He isn't interested in hearing about what she is learning. He isn't comfortable in the environments she has immersed herself in. He doesn't like the new people she knows. He doesn't trust the world she is moving into. He feels angry and betrayed. He accuses her of being a bad mom (but the kids are grown and they laugh him off)-- he begs her to return to the life they knew together. He attempts to woo her back. She asks him to just come take a look at what she is doing, but he refuses. It scares him and he feels alienated by it. Her new life is literally alien to him.

She gets to a point when she has to decide what to do. Will she give it all up and go back to a life that now feels limiting to her and in which she had grown depressed because she loves a man who cannot change? Or will she choose the life for herself that she finds fulfilling and offers her new ways of looking at the world. Will she choose herself or him?

It doesn't matter what she's doing in the Palace. The details are unimportant. Just as he details of his daily life in the woods are unimportant. This is the essence of what's happening. This is basically the conflict. And it's not uncommon.

But it DOES matter what she learns, just like it would matter what the housewife is studying! It's part of the story, if it's not mentioned what she studies, then it's just a thought scenario where we are told what to feel but not why, not a real story at all, just a thought experiment. You might as well replace Strongbow and Moonshade with the characters you just described, the details are everything in a story.... at least for me, if my heart is going to catch up with my head, because otherwise I'll just think of and be distracted by solutions that are not hindered by the narrative. (like Manga just demonstrated with her solution to removing wolfblood)

Compare Moonshade and Strongbow to Skywise and Cutter. They basically have the same scenario, except Cutter don't nag at Skywise. But we know why they feel the way they do. Skywise describing the stars as alive and admiring them appeals to us, gives us something to hold on to, he wants to travel, explore, touch the stars, it's been hammered into the story over and over from the very beginning, it's his name, who he is, and it becomes appealing. We know what he likes! We know its important to him, and how important it is to him. Cutter is more distant, but he mentiones his skin and feeling and we get that too because it's really kind of basic. And then, what I consider the climax of their differences, faced with suddenly being lost in space (because skywise is an idiot) we're shown exactly how terrifying Skywises dreams really are for someone like Cutter, and we realize exactly why he could never join Skywise in space.

And then Cutter goes on to describe the trees, sounds of birds, distinctive, relatable things we have known and experienced and kinda even knew Cutter loved, but now with the paralell of the emptiness of space we really understand his side as almost intimately. That's story telling. That's motivations put up against each other. That's two sides of a choice explored, both sides are beautiful, both sides are detailed and explained in perfect clarity why they can not be abandoned and why they can not coexist. This is how your heart catches up with your head. That's what Moonshade and Strongbows story needs right now.

Congrats btw Lunakat!!!!

For me it is very hard to symphatise with Moonshade because we know so little of her part of the story. We have seen more of Strongbow. We know why he doesn't like the palace and how much "the way" means to him. I think their story would have been more interesting if Moonshade would have had more time to show/tell what she's up to. Right now it is more about Strongbow and the drama of their failing relationship and frankly I'm getting a little sick of it. Just let each other go and get it over with...

namuhna wrote:

But it DOES matter what she learns, just like it would matter what the housewife is studying! It's part of the story, if it's not mentioned what she studies, then it's just a thought scenario where we are told what to feel but not why, not a real story at all, just a thought experiment. You might as well replace Strongbow and Moonshade with the characters you just described, the details are everything in a story.... at least for me, if my heart is going to catch up with my head, because otherwise I'll just think of and be distracted by solutions that are not hindered by the narrative. (like Manga just demonstrated with her solution to removing wolfblood)

Compare Moonshade and Strongbow to Skywise and Cutter. They basically have the same scenario, except Cutter don't nag at Skywise. But we know why they feel the way they do. Skywise describing the stars as alive and admiring them appeals to us, gives us something to hold on to, he wants to travel, explore, touch the stars, it's been hammered into the story over and over from the very beginning, it's his name, who he is, and it becomes appealing. We know what he likes! We know its important to him, and how important it is to him. Cutter is more distant, but he mentiones his skin and feeling and we get that too because it's really kind of basic. And then, what I consider the climax of their differences, faced with suddenly being lost in space (because skywise is an idiot) we're shown exactly how terrifying Skywises dreams really are for someone like Cutter, and we realize exactly why he could never join Skywise in space.

And then Cutter goes on to describe the trees, sounds of birds, distinctive, relatable things we have known and experienced and kinda even knew Cutter loved, but now with the paralell of the emptiness of space we really understand his side as almost intimately. That's story telling. That's motivations put up against each other. That's two sides of a choice explored, both sides are beautiful, both sides are detailed and explained in perfect clarity why they can not be abandoned and why they can not coexist. This is how your heart catches up with your head. That's what Moonshade and Strongbows story needs right now.

I just meant that it doesn't matter to the point of what's happening or the crux of their relationship. This is a common dynamic that happens over lots of things. For them, it happens to be the Palace vs the Forest. But it could be any situation in which a partner moves in a direction that is good for them, but alienates the person they are with, who refuses to try to understand it and rather, digs in their heels against it.

What you are describing is a deficit of storytelling. What Moonshade does in the Palace definitely matters in regards to her character development and engaging readers in her journey. And yes, that is completely lacking.

As far as that palace being "boring" as a reason to disapprove her choices-- I don't agree. I think the point is that they are her choices, not her life mate's and not ours-- and she's entitled to them. But yeah-- Cutter and Skywise are much better developed and their relationship is much better explored and fleshed out-- and so is their conflict. Moonshade, in the timeline of the story, has given Strongbow over thirty years to come to grips with this. That's not exactly throwing her choice at him suddenly. But as far as the pacing is concerned-- it has seemed abrupt to readers.

Lunakat wrote:

namuhna wrote:

But it DOES matter what she learns, just like it would matter what the housewife is studying! It's part of the story, if it's not mentioned what she studies, then it's just a thought scenario where we are told what to feel but not why, not a real story at all, just a thought experiment. You might as well replace Strongbow and Moonshade with the characters you just described, the details are everything in a story.... at least for me, if my heart is going to catch up with my head, because otherwise I'll just think of and be distracted by solutions that are not hindered by the narrative. (like Manga just demonstrated with her solution to removing wolfblood)

Compare Moonshade and Strongbow to Skywise and Cutter. They basically have the same scenario, except Cutter don't nag at Skywise. But we know why they feel the way they do. Skywise describing the stars as alive and admiring them appeals to us, gives us something to hold on to, he wants to travel, explore, touch the stars, it's been hammered into the story over and over from the very beginning, it's his name, who he is, and it becomes appealing. We know what he likes! We know its important to him, and how important it is to him. Cutter is more distant, but he mentiones his skin and feeling and we get that too because it's really kind of basic. And then, what I consider the climax of their differences, faced with suddenly being lost in space (because skywise is an idiot) we're shown exactly how terrifying Skywises dreams really are for someone like Cutter, and we realize exactly why he could never join Skywise in space.

And then Cutter goes on to describe the trees, sounds of birds, distinctive, relatable things we have known and experienced and kinda even knew Cutter loved, but now with the paralell of the emptiness of space we really understand his side as almost intimately. That's story telling. That's motivations put up against each other. That's two sides of a choice explored, both sides are beautiful, both sides are detailed and explained in perfect clarity why they can not be abandoned and why they can not coexist. This is how your heart catches up with your head. That's what Moonshade and Strongbows story needs right now.

I just meant that it doesn't matter to the point of what's happening or the crux of their relationship. This is a common dynamic that happens over lots of things. For them, it happens to be the Palace vs the Forest. But it could be any situation in which a partner moves in a direction that is good for them, but alienates the person they are with, who refuses to try to understand it and rather, digs in their heels against it.

What you are describing is a deficit of storytelling. What Moonshade does in the Palace definitely matters in regards to her character development and engaging readers in her journey. And yes, that is completely lacking.

As far as that palace being "boring" as a reason to disapprove her choices-- I don't agree. I think the point is that they are her choices, not her life mate's and not ours-- and she's entitled to them. But yeah-- Cutter and Skywise are much better developed and their relationship is much better explored and fleshed out-- and so is their conflict. Moonshade, in the timeline of the story, has given Strongbow over thirty years to come to grips with this. That's not exactly throwing her choice at him suddenly. But as far as the pacing is concerned-- it has seemed abrupt to readers.

yes, I understand the dynamic and what I'm supposed to feel, but the entire problem is that since I don't know the details, I can't relate, and so my heart don't feel for them. I'm just perplexed by the situations, and slightly annoyed. And the entire Final Quest has been a little bit like this, even when I appreciated solving puzzles and having them solved for me, I still couldn't really feel like part of the story. Until this issue!
I really feel for Cutter here, which is a relief because I've been having that feeling of secrets, like with strongbow only ten times stronger, since that one seriously creepy image of Cutter and Timmain next to eachother staring right through to us. Right after he studies the key in New Moon I think it was? I don't remember when, just that that image weirded me out

Wisp wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Well, the murderous humans are (likely) going to find the Holt next issue. It's likely going to be repeat of the crash.
Everybody in the palace, the immortals are going to die.

Lunakat wrote:

They will find the Holt rather than the Palace-- and Ember will have to fight them off using Treestump's armor and weapons. That's my guess.

Well, the possibilities aren't mutual exclusive.  The humans are explicitly headed for the holt (they don't even know where the palace is at the moment,) but just as a practical matter, Ember's going to need reinforcements--Go-Back reinforcements probably--if the humans attack.  She's only got 6-8 elves in her "tribe" at the moment, and only a few of them are fighters (Pike, Yun, Treestump, Clearbrook, Strongbow, maybe Aroree).  Aroree is only somewhat helpful in a fight, and Strongbow's pretty out of it.  As for Newstar and Ohler....what are they going to do, strangle humans with daisy chains?  If the humans attack and the palace doesn't come to help, there's no way the holt elves win that fight--even with Treestump's armor and weapons.  It's just a logistical impossibility.  So my guess is that the humans attack, Ember calls for reinforcements, the Go-Backs arrive at a desperate juncture and turn the tide.

Now what would make the story more interesting is if the drama with Rayek somehow prevents the palace from responding, leaving Ember and her group on their own. But based on the way the story's been going thus far, I think help will come.  

Newstar actually did (try to) help during the Go-Back War.
Let's just hope Ohler isn't too much like his bro and decides the best course of action would be to tie her up...

Redhead Ember wrote:

Wisp wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Well, the murderous humans are (likely) going to find the Holt next issue. It's likely going to be repeat of the crash.
Everybody in the palace, the immortals are going to die.

Lunakat wrote:

They will find the Holt rather than the Palace-- and Ember will have to fight them off using Treestump's armor and weapons. That's my guess.

Well, the possibilities aren't mutual exclusive.  The humans are explicitly headed for the holt (they don't even know where the palace is at the moment,) but just as a practical matter, Ember's going to need reinforcements--Go-Back reinforcements probably--if the humans attack.  She's only got 6-8 elves in her "tribe" at the moment, and only a few of them are fighters (Pike, Yun, Treestump, Clearbrook, Strongbow, maybe Aroree).  Aroree is only somewhat helpful in a fight, and Strongbow's pretty out of it.  As for Newstar and Ohler....what are they going to do, strangle humans with daisy chains?  If the humans attack and the palace doesn't come to help, there's no way the holt elves win that fight--even with Treestump's armor and weapons.  It's just a logistical impossibility.  So my guess is that the humans attack, Ember calls for reinforcements, the Go-Backs arrive at a desperate juncture and turn the tide.

Now what would make the story more interesting is if the drama with Rayek somehow prevents the palace from responding, leaving Ember and her group on their own. But based on the way the story's been going thus far, I think help will come.  

Newstar actually did (try to) help during the Go-Back War.
Let's just hope Ohler isn't too much like his bro and decides the best course of action would be to tie her up...

Binding her just makes her a really easy target for the humans. O_o
The invading Go-Backs might have left her alone if they found, but the humans?
'Aw yeeeeeeah!'
Ugh.

KR Wordgazer wrote:

namuhna wrote:

As I said, part of my confusion is totally due to personal view of the world and romance. For some, probably most people, the choice between a mate and personal growth would be hard, for me it really, really isn't. Grow first, mate later. And if you haven't finished growing, leave mate until you are.

But no one ever truly stops growing and changing-- even if it's only changing to become more set in the path you have already chosen. One of the joys of long-term relationship is growing and changing together.  For many people, having a long-term relationship is part of their personal growth-- it's not some separate thing that they enjoy on the side. The relationship with the other person becomes part of who you are.

Ok, but I'm just saying if you have to chose... anyway, as I said, my world view. I really don't know what I'm talking about in terms of relationships...

So I have a hard time understanding Strongbow and Moonshades relationship from the get go, I just have to accept that they're soulmates meant to be, but then they both chose to separate because of unknown reasons which I don't understand at all and so my previous tentative understanding of their love falls apart as well, because how can they love eachother if they give eachother up for what has basically been presented as a weird flying mountain that elves either like or don't like because of reasons?

Moonshade isn't giving him up for a flying mountain. It's clear that she is tired of living a hand to mouth existence fraught with danger and the possibility of death. She thinks there is a better way to live- and that the Palace allows for safety, peace and the chance to better understand the nature of their existence. Strongbow likes hunting in the woods because it's the way and that's what he's always known. She's tired of making clothes out of animal skin and watching people she knows periodically meet violent ends. He won't even temporarily try anything different, because it makes him uncomfortable.

Lunakat wrote:

He won't even temporarily try anything different, because it makes him uncomfortable.

I think you're right when it comes to Moonshade but oversimplifying this when it comes to Strongbow.  He calls Moonshade his "sole desire" or whatever it is he calls her-- but he's deceiving himself there.  What he desires most of all is the Way. The Way is how he understands his universe. The way is how he makes sense of his own existence. In short, I think the Way is Strongbow's religion, and that the only way to make sense of the way he's acting is to consider it in terms of religion.

For those who are not religious, this may be hard to relate to. But Strongbow does not refuse to try anything different because it makes him uncomfortable; he refuses to try anything different because he believes it's against the Way.

When Strongbow and Moonshade became lifemates, the Way was all there was. The Wolfrider tribe universally adhered to the Way. It's kind of like in medieval times when everyone in Europe was Catholic and no one had any thought of being anything else. When the Reformation happened, it tore families apart. So, now, does the advent of the Palace and the completely other-way of thinking and living that came with it.

In the Palace War Strongbow rejected this change in thinking that the Palace had brought. But he wasn't alone. His fellow-Wolfriders, though recognizing that the Way was just "the smaller truth within the larger," also decided to stick with the Way (as Nightfall put it, "for me, from day to day, the smaller is enough" [paraphrase]).

But after the Return of the Palace and the War for the Shards, the Palace settled in the Holt and became part of the everyday lives of the Wolfriders-- and they found that it wasn't so easy to set it aside for a focus on the "smaller truth" anymore. In many ways the larger truth was overriding and displacing the smaller one.  But-- and this is a big BUT-- the smaller truth is still true.  The Way is still a valid way to live, and it still presents real solutions for living one's life. Strongbow isn't clinging to it because he's deluded. He's clinging to it because the smaller truth is still what works for him.

Strongbow thought Moonshade would always continue in the Way with him. He doesn't like the Palace way and doesn't want to live that way. Now Moonshade does-- and she has actively turned away from the Way, rejecting it. In doing so, she has rejected him.

I don't think it works to just write off either of them as just being stubborn or unwilling to be made uncomfortable.  This couple represents in a microcosm the biggest social-personal conflict of humanity in the modern and postmodern eras. It may not even be possible to solve it.

manga wrote:

To say "I'm here to stay with you for a season" and then turn around and in what seems the SAME DAY to make such a fundamental change... no wonder Strongbow's feeling torn.

THIS. I've started to wonder whether only I noticed and disliked this detail.
What Moonshade wants, how she decides for her life - that's one thing. But what happened to the couple who was sharing most deeply?
As much as Strongbow wished that Moonshade will not change and return to "the Way" to share the forest lifestyle again Moonshade wished that Strongbow would abandon his ways and follow her in the Palace - possibly follows her to physical "immortality".

How comes that they were no longer able to communicate in a way that Strongbow gets what Moonshade longs for? Or at least how bad she feels the way she's now? And had to change the direction of her life to feel whole again?
How comes that she don't realise that this is not Strongbow's way? That he cannot turn his life in this direction - least not now?

Those are problems of human couples  ... but should it be the problem of an elfin couple who can share thoughts and feeling immediately in sending? Even more - a recognized couple? What happened with their communication that was pointed out as really intense in Dreamtime? Did I get something wrong?


What Moonshade wants, how she decides for her life - that's one thing. But the way she finally executed it felt like betrayal for me.
"Lifemate, I came to spend a whole season with you!"
Hours later ...
"Surprise! I have my wolfblood removed. How do you like?"
... just like she went to the hairdresser and got a pixie cut.
My immediate thought was WTF? Betrayal. Either this or bad story telling.

Why couldn't she tell ... better send:
I need to change, Wyl. I need to do this for my own well being. I have decided - tonight Leetah will remove my wolfblood.
I love you, Wyl. That why I want to spend the coming season with you - as a fullblooded elf. Let us explore how - or whther - we can make our relationship work.
(guess there are better words for this ... I'm not a storyteller)
This would have been clear. Fair.

Her decision - his decision - the whole developement ... I may or may not like it as a fan. But I would accept it - even understand it as character developement if they had handled it more like an "elfin recognized mentally sharing mates" mates issue instead of a human "we have grown apart" case. Talking about the way this went - not about the result.

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him. Also- she does send to him and ask him to try to experience what she has experienced. He says no. I also didn't think that she changed herself right away. She spent the time with him-- but changes afterward. Was that even the same season?

@Krwordgazer-- you have a point. I agree.

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him.

Maybe the way/wolfblood/whatever just keeps deleting the whole 'Moonshade wants more out of life'- thing from his head every single time he wakes up.
I mean, he's wolfrider. He forgets.

But, yeah. I agree with you. It shouldn't sudden for him. No pity here.

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him.

Maybe the way/wolfblood/whatever just keeps deleting the whole 'Moonshade wants more out of life'- thing from his head every single time he wakes up.
I mean, he's wolfrider. He forgets.

Maybe there is something to that. Maybe he's just not noticing the time passing...

Yeah, either Moonshade was keeping a LOT from Strongbow - which I somewhat doubt - or Strongbow was in total denial.

See, the way I read that "to spend a whole season with you" scene with the emphasis on the "season" - I read her as saying "No, I haven't changed my mind about living in the Palace or pursuing a larger truth, but I'll spend the spring with you. Don't think this means more than that."

But I would have loved a scene where Moonshade tried to explicitly warn Strongbow that she was going to see Leetah for wolf blood removal and Strongbow ignoring her words or blowing her off again. She was certainly trying to prep him before hand - I mean, they had a ten year separation with "visits" he complained about. This CANNOT have been a shock for him without some Olympic level self delusion. Which calls into question just how connected he ever was to Moonshade.

Like those couples on those game shows who are all "I totally know how my partner will answer" and are then roundly humiliated when they get every question about their spouse wrong.

@Wingthing-- yeah, totally! I agree! I think the thing is-- Moonshade has just always supported Strongbow. But this is her asking for the reverse-- and he can't give it.

Remember in Blue Mountain he asked her "Are you with them or me?" She chose to go with him-- but she clearly didn't want to leave. She was crying as the doors closed. And later, when they were alone, she questioned his behavior. He immediately jumped to "so you are against me too?!" Of course she wasn't against him-- her actions had demonstrated that. But his perspective was all or nothing. His instinct was to say "if you aren't with me-- u are against me." And he's doing it here too. He can't accept that this is about u her wanting to embrace what she needs-- he sees it as a rejection of him. But he isn't extending himself to meet her halfway. She's doing all the extending. Did we see him spend a season with her in the Palace? No. Would we expect him to? Probably not. But why not? She spent a season in the Holt with him. Why shouldn't he do the reverse for her? He's just been comfy with her unwavering support through thick and thin. He is losing his relationship with her because, instead of trying to save it, he is basically pouting and punishing her for her 'betrayal' of him. Relationships can't be one sided like that. If someone needs to change and grow-- the other party needs to let them... if they really love them. I feel like Strongbow is letting his ego and needs take precedent over his love for Moonshade and her needs.

Lunakat wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him.

Maybe the way/wolfblood/whatever just keeps deleting the whole 'Moonshade wants more out of life'- thing from his head every single time he wakes up.
I mean, he's wolfrider. He forgets.

Maybe there is something to that. Maybe he's just not noticing the time passing...

Didn't the Anthologies mention the early wolfriders sometimes couldn't remember their mate's name and they honestly have to keep reminding them?
But that was the really really really early wolfriders.
Strongbow is in denial and unsupportive.

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him.

Maybe the way/wolfblood/whatever just keeps deleting the whole 'Moonshade wants more out of life'- thing from his head every single time he wakes up.
I mean, he's wolfrider. He forgets.

Maybe there is something to that. Maybe he's just not noticing the time passing...

Didn't he Anthologies mention the early wolfriders sometimes couldn't remember their mate's name and they honestly have to keep reminding them?
But that was the really really really early wolfriders.
Strongbow is in denial and unsupportive.

Yeah-- I think there was a lot about how they couldn't remember things. They had a lot more animal in them-- and thought accordingly. Like if a wolf could talk, I guess. Strongbow is pretty primitive that way. Maybe his mind just can't handle it.

Lunakat wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

It's been over thirty years. This isn't sudden for him.

Maybe the way/wolfblood/whatever just keeps deleting the whole 'Moonshade wants more out of life'- thing from his head every single time he wakes up.
I mean, he's wolfrider. He forgets.

Maybe there is something to that. Maybe he's just not noticing the time passing...

Didn't the Anthologies mention the early wolfriders sometimes couldn't remember their mate's name and they honestly have to keep reminding them?
But that was the really really really early wolfriders.
Strongbow is in denial and unsupportive.

Yeah-- I think there was a lot about how they couldn't remember things. They had a lot more animal in them-- and thought accordingly. Like if a wolf could talk, I guess. Strongbow is pretty primitive that way. Maybe his mind just can't handle it.

Honestly, on some level, I think he just doesn't want to.

Lunakat wrote:

Moonshade has just always supported Strongbow. But this is her asking for the reverse-- and he can't give it.

I think you're completely right about it.

Lunakat wrote:

Moonshade isn't giving him up for a flying mountain. It's clear that she is tired of living a hand to mouth existence fraught with danger and the possibility of death. She thinks there is a better way to live- and that the Palace allows for safety, peace and the chance to better understand the nature of their existence. Strongbow likes hunting in the woods because it's the way and that's what he's always known. She's tired of making clothes out of animal skin and watching people she knows periodically meet violent ends. He won't even temporarily try anything different, because it makes him uncomfortable.

OK, but if I accept that I don't see why they haven't just broken up years ago. So we're back to my original point, I just don't get their relationship and I don't get the draw of the palace, it just becomes a generic storyline with no heart. I need details, and preferably at least a discussion where they make their motivations absolutely clear. Strongbow needs to explain specifically what's up with his fear of the palace. And Moonshade needs to explain why on earth she needed to remove her wolfblood right now and preferably why she changed her mind in the first place. All that you said sounds absolutely reasonable, but it really isn't shown well and clearly enough for good dramatic effect. Unless they're keeping it secret for some big reveal.

Like Cutter mentioned in the searcher and the sword, Strongbow is insanely obsessed with the safety of the tribe, yet why does he not move his family to the palace? That look Strongbow gives right then, I'm telling you, there's something weird going on there. There are too many questions!

And a bit related, but that look kinda reminds me of Leetah and Menders look when asked if they can initiate Embers recognition again. Sooo, I can't remember if I read that theory here or somewhere or if I made it up myself, but is it common knowledge that possibly Ember was poisoned with some infertility-thing from that Lady-servant? To me that's basically canon and that's just one example of the amazing amount of puzzles the Final Quest has. They kinda explain her refusal as copying Leetah, but that really doesn't make sense when you really think about it at all so you need to go back and see what happened in detail and suddenly it DOES make sense, but only if you figure out the real puzzle. Like Kahvi about Cutters sweet body too, and why Cutter reads Timmains mind so easily. Go-backs go back where? Wendy hinting that we shouldn't judge Rayeks INSANELY EVIL SELFISH decsision to keep Winnowill until we know the full story? Tiny things, that's all part of a big riddle. I don't think we've seen the end of shocking revelations just yet.

(But wait a minute, Moonshade said she wanted to understand the nature of their existance? When? i totally forgot! the only thing I remember about her wants is going to the stars when Leetah healed her, which is well... where did that come from? I think in this thread someone said something about Moonshade didn't seem so much like she was looking for something new as just resigning to the palace, I agree and any motivation beyond that would be VERY welcome!)

I, too, wish one or more scenes between them before she took this action had been explicitly shown. But remember that Strongbow had accepted Moonshade living in the Palace (though he missed her and was lonely), had accepted her change in clothing (which can only mean she had also stopped tanning leather), and had accepted her flying away without him-- because that was what she needed to do. He has not been totally unsupportive up till now.

I suspect that in that offstage scene, he asked her not to lose her wolfblood, begged her not to, and hoped against hope she wouldn't, because to him, that was the one thing he couldn't take. Like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof, who bent tradition again and again for his daughters, until he came up against one tradition he couldn't bend, because it was foundational and essential to his religious understanding of his world.

"On the other hand... NO! There IS no other hand!" -- because the "other hand" means leaving Judaism/the Way and all it means to them, as they know it.

That's where both Tevye and Strongbow have ended up. We can think they're wrong (and for the record, I do think they're wrong), but to write them off as merely "in denial" or "stubborn" is to misunderstand them completely.