The Final Quest

Not ONLY during this times.

My point is that during times of danger and loss of life replacement ist necessary - and so it's logical that an endangered community has birth more often to keep the numbers up. -> Wolfriders.

In peaceful environment without loss replacement is hardly needed - so reproduction will happen, but at VERY slow rate. That is - if there is still living space to spread. -> Sunfolk.

Without loss and with limited living space you have the BM situation - reproduction will stop or life will become VERY unpleasant. -> Gliders.

I'm not talking about Humans and human developement here but about a race of immortal aliens. Immortal aliens who had learned eons ago to stop reproduction in time before overpopulation will destroy their living space (again). They brought this heritage to the WoTMs. They had to LEARN to procreate again. They did - just enough to survive.

And about developement - they developed in another way, didn't they? The Coneheads are on a very different level of mental, spiritual - and magical - stage of developement. The individual develope - not the race. Not anymore - they were beyond this.

10 milennia or 20 might be a very short time for those creatures to change - especially when generations come slow and individuals are few. Not much chances to reprogram themselves.

it's not as if the sunfolk didnt have room to expand

Embala wrote:

The individual develope - not the race. Not anymore - they were beyond this.

I disagree with this. The way the High Ones functioned, and the way the Gliders functioned-- and even the way the SunFolk functioned to an extent (thinking of Savah).. the individual was often less important the function he/she played for the group. The individual would subsume him/herself to the needs of the group. They were sort of like... bees I think.

Think about Savah (containing all the memories of her tribe), the Doors (completely losing self in the function of simply opening and closing doors), Brace (who gave up his identity to support a portion of the mountain), the Chosen Eight (hunting for the rest of the society and acting as a unit), Orolin/The Scroll-- who simply turned the scroll while encased in wrapstuff, Timmain (becoming a wolf to feed her people and losing herself in that body as she accidentally tunes into the wolfpack instead)... The High Ones/Coneheads were not really that into individualism.

Individuals were simply parts of a group. There seemed to be a leader, various roles to be played for the well being of the whole, and the unit itself. Like Bees. The Queen Bee isn't an individual. She is, but more than that- she's a baby-making entity. Drones aren't individuals either- even though they technically are. They exist to impregnate her, and that's their only function. You have the workers, who collect honey, and the workers who tend the babies, and the workers who tend the hive. And each bee is an individual-- but only in the same way a cell is individual within your body. The individuals are less important than the whole. Elves seem to be the same way.

Death and danger may create a situation that is good for having babies to replace lost tribe members-- but it's a pretty bad set up for getting those babies to adulthood. Peace and prosperity, with room to grow (as the SunFolk had), is the ideal situation for both birthing babies and getting them to adulthood.

i think the notion that the SunFolk were not having kids was complete revision.

Lunakat wrote:

Embala wrote:

The individual develope - not the race. Not anymore - they were beyond this.

I disagree with this. The way the High Ones functioned, and the way the Gliders functioned-- and even the way the SunFolk functioned to an extent (thinking of Savah).. the individual was often less important the function he/she played for the group. The individual would subsume him/herself to the needs of the group. They were sort of like... bees I think.

You are right. I've forgotten about this pattern - it already showed in the the Circle of Nine. The bee comparism very well describes the functionality of the Coneheads/High Ones ... and it is flawed as probable everything that tries to explain this alien race with example from our world.

How to explain right what I mean?

Bees procreate to replace lost members - and they procreate to expand. Young queens with bees leave the hive to build their own.
The Coneheads obviously don't. In the end of their dying world and during the time of exploring with the vessels they were not set up to spread - only to keep the status quo.

The Coneheads of a vessel are like an organism - you've pointed this out well. Within this organism the cells - the individuals - develope. They can explore, physicall and psychically. Improve their psychical and magical skills a.s.o. And there is not even need to replace the cells regulary as it happens in a bee hive or a human body - they are immortal. And if someone dies by accident or gives up the physical shell by will - the spirit still might keep its functionability for the organism.

They had adandonned the ways of their human-like ancestors eons ago. They have abandonned the principle ot developement by procreation and spreading. They have abondonned it both mentally and physically and followed a totally different path.

Then they crashlanded on a world where their ways don't work well - or not at all. Suddenly the immortal beings DIE in body ... and the spirits can not keep up interaction like used to be. They need to relearn old ways to keep functional. To stay alive. They learn to procreate again. But the program of the eons of existence before still works: Replace missing cells. Improve the existing cells. Keep the body (community) you have working. Do not procreate to spread and make a bigger body (or several bodies). There WOULD have been living space enough to spread and thrive and develope again the way their far ancestors did (or the humans). But it was not in their program - and 20 milennia were not long enough to rewrite that program. Or they saw no need of it.

The old program is still working. We see what happens with the elves in the Palace. It does NOT trigger more Recognition or "free fertality" to grow or get another and another generation of better adepted offsprings. The Palace works to improve the functionability of the existing cells - read: the magical skills of the living elves.

Quote :

Death and danger may create a situation that is good for having babies to replace lost tribe members-- but it's a pretty bad set up for getting those babies to adulthood. Peace and prosperity, with room to grow (as the SunFolk had), is the ideal situation for both birthing babies and getting them to adulthood.

You are right - when it is about procreation the way we kow it. The way we use it.
When I look at it the way I've tried to explain above - it's about healing a wound. It needs to be closed at once - not when the circumstances are optimal for a good healing. And when the wound is healed and the danger is over ... there is no need to grow more cells. So no  - or hardly no - reproduction in long periods of peace and prosperity.

That's my two cents. I need to accept that the Coneheads/High Ones follow a totally different premise when it comes to developement, growth and procreation. If not - then I'll look at a rather messed up pseudo-human group of beings.

Quote :

i think the notion that the SunFolk were not having kids was complete revision.

Same here. I think there were kitling ... few though for replacement and very slow growth. At least until a certain number is reached.

That makes me think: Can the number of physical existing individuals be a limiting factor?
How many Coneheads were in this vessel?
How many Gliders in Blue Mountain?
How many Sunfolk in Sorrows End?
How many Wolfriders in the Holt?
How many Wavedancers in the shoal?

Wolfriders were able to increase their numbers in peaceful periods. It was said there were times of thriving ... but the still kept numbers low.
Go-Backs could procreate by will ... but there werre not much of them either. And when individuals don't "die in time" they tend to seek death.

Of course there is the limiting factor of environment as an external influence. But can there be an internal limit as well? A program from Conehead times that says: "Body complete. Stopp producing cells."? It would explain that the Sunfolk actually stopped to have children at some point.

The contradiction I see with that theory is that, at one point, the Coneheads inhabited an entire planet. So they should not be limited by the number of individuals existing at a given time.

Lunakat wrote:

Death and danger may create a situation that is good for having babies to replace lost tribe members-- but it's a pretty bad set up for getting those babies to adulthood. Peace and prosperity, with room to grow (as the SunFolk had), is the ideal situation for both birthing babies and getting them to adulthood.

i think the notion that the SunFolk were not having kids was complete revision.

Who's saying the Sun Folk weren't having kids? Especially when it's very obvious that they were?

I don't know if it was mentioned directly in the thread, but I think the convo stems from Wendy Pini saying she regretted putting so many sun village kids in the first comics and secretly there aren't any.

kathleen3.0 wrote:

I don't know if it was mentioned directly in the thread, but I think the convo stems from Wendy Pini saying she regretted putting so many sun village kids in the first comics and secretly there aren't any.

Wow. That's just...dumb, Elfmom. Like, "Han didn't shoot first" kinda dumb.

There's the conversation Kathleen mentioned and also the novelization downplays the number of kids and highlights the beginnings of stagnation.

So... can anyone still download early through the darkhorse digital app? Or was that loophole closed?

Gonna be scarce around here 'til I get my hands on my comic. I'd be getting it today only this week has been a comedy of chest pains and hospital trips and I'm kind of grounded from driving out to the comic shop.

If anyone sees her, please point Leetah my way. I wonder if she's any good at curing conditions like diabetes (the current favorite for what the heck is wrong).

It seems to be closed. Nevertheless, I just read it.

SPOILERS (but not much of them- pretty mild spoilers, actually)

My opinion, storywise:

WTF Timmain? Seriously? Seriously? Seriously, Savah? Hypocrite much? I guess when you can live forever in your cushy, impenetrable home you have enough time and other people's lives to waste. Whattheheckever.

And what's all this "taking off for the stars" stuff? Have they told anybody else yet? Cutter seems to know-- but Strongbow does not seem in the loop. Neither does Ember, for that matter. This sort of seems like a major big deal that you would have some tribal counsel or collective group meeting over. Give everyone a heads up or something. And anyways, what's the rush?

Much like Willow's line in "Once More with Feeling," this issue seems mostly filler.

manga wrote:

Gonna be scarce around here 'til I get my hands on my comic.  I'd be getting it today only this week has been a comedy of chest pains and hospital trips and I'm kind of grounded from driving out to the comic shop.

If anyone sees her, please point Leetah my way.  I wonder if she's any good at curing conditions like diabetes (the current favorite for what the heck is wrong).

Ohmygosh Manga! I hope you are going to be okay! That sounds serious. Take care of yourself!

Lunakat wrote:

It seems to be closed. Nevertheless, I just read it.

SPOILERS (but not much of them- pretty mild spoilers, actually)

My opinion, storywise:

WTF Timmain? Seriously? Seriously? Seriously, Savah? Hypocrite much? I guess when you can live forever in your cushy, impenetrable home you have enough time and other people's lives to waste. Whattheheckever.

And what's all this "taking off for the stars" stuff? Have they told anybody else yet? Cutter seems to know-- but Strongbow does not seem in the loop. Neither does Ember, for that matter. This sort of seems like a major big deal that you would have some tribal counsel or collective group meeting over. Give everyone a heads up or something. And anyways, what's the rush?

Much like Willow's line in "Once More with Feeling," this issue seems mostly filler.

Timmain and Savah could at least reach out to the people travelling and ask if they want them to come and meet them half way. This isn't like the wolfriders vs. immortality debate, it's literally just offering a lift. It's also out of character for Savah, although she and Timmain might have had some kind of off screen debate.

Could they be waiting until everyone else arrives to broach the subject of space travel? If so, that's ridiculous, especially since there are people, like Ember, who don't seem to want to leave their home, let alone the planet.

Strongbow may have no idea what's happening, but Moonshade definitely seems to be leaving. Good, some actual conflict and development. Maybe they'll come out stronger for this. Maybe they'll be happier apart.

And the Go Backs get no development, no real focus, nothing. We don't even really know why they decided to leave their home, travel miles beneath the earth, for the sake of a home their ancestors fought and died for, and barely held for three years before a genocidal maniac destroyed it and their other house, scattering many of them to the wind. I'd like some actual go back characters, now Krim and Skot and Kahvi are dead, and some kind of commentary on how unappreciated the Go Backs are, as well as their perspective on the fact that the Sun Folk have held the Palace basically ever nice a few years after its return, not to mention having the last piece of the (stolen) palace in their possession as well, for all those millennia.

And what do the Sun Folk think of having to live with the Go Backs? The two cultures sort of have things in common, they're both musical, love dancing, love food(if Teir is anything to go by, the Go Backs must have a culinary culture). The war for the little palace might be fresh in some minds, but the sun folk have proven to be hospitable to former hostile a before.

Kathleen wrote:

Timmain and Savah could at least reach out to the people travelling and ask if they want them to come and meet them half way. This isn't like the wolfriders vs. immortality debate, it's literally just offering a lift.

Oh, but they can't! Because Timmain has decided everyone needs to learn a lesson by traveling for miles, if not years, across hazardous terrain. Because it's not possible that anyone has struggled enough!

And Savah agrees with her! Because it's not as if the SunFolk lived in peace for centuries, before hiding from the world after their first real skirmish, then got rescued via a lift in the Palace... oh wait, they did! Well, someone needs to go drop them off several miles away so they can trek back and deserve it!

Lunakat wrote:

Kathleen wrote:

Timmain and Savah could at least reach out to the people travelling and ask if they want them to come and meet them half way. This isn't like the wolfriders vs. immortality debate, it's literally just offering a lift.

Oh, but they can't! Because Timmain has decided everyone needs to learn a lesson by traveling for miles, if not years, across hazardous terrain. Because it's not possible that anyone has struggled enough!

And Savah agrees with her! Because it's not as if the SunFolk lived in peace for centuries, before hiding from the world after their first real skirmish, then got rescued via a lift in the Palace... oh wait, they did! Well, someone needs to go drop them off several miles away so they can trek back and deserve it!

Okay, haven't gotten the comic yet, but based on the spoilers I'm hearing this REALLY offers more proof for my "Timmain stranded the Palace on Abode 20,000 years ago ON PURPOSE because she believes suffering builds character" conspiracy theory.

Lunakat wrote:

. And anyways, what's the rush?

The rush is.... end the series as fast as possible with bang and a buck ($$$)

Period.



Also... Manga... I seriously hope you feel better soon, hun! *sends healing hugs*

Kindredsoul wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

. And anyways, what's the rush?

The rush is....  end the series as fast as possible with bang and a buck ($$$)

Well... I would buy that the authors probably want to wrap up the series while they still have the time and energy to do it... but (just between you, me and the lamp-post) there is no way that anyone spends a lifetime working on an independent comic if they want to make a lot of money. Comics just aren't that lucrative for writers and artists! (Except in some very rare situations.) People do it for the love of it.

wingthing wrote:

Okay, haven't gotten the comic yet, but based on the spoilers I'm hearing this REALLY offers more proof for my "Timmain stranded the Palace on Abode 20,000 years ago ON PURPOSE because she believes suffering builds character" conspiracy theory.

I think this issue completely bolsters that theory!

wingthing wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

Kathleen wrote:

Timmain and Savah could at least reach out to the people travelling and ask if they want them to come and meet them half way. This isn't like the wolfriders vs. immortality debate, it's literally just offering a lift.

Oh, but they can't! Because Timmain has decided everyone needs to learn a lesson by traveling for miles, if not years, across hazardous terrain. Because it's not possible that anyone has struggled enough!

And Savah agrees with her! Because it's not as if the SunFolk lived in peace for centuries, before hiding from the world after their first real skirmish, then got rescued via a lift in the Palace... oh wait, they did! Well, someone needs to go drop them off several miles away so they can trek back and deserve it!

Okay, haven't gotten the comic yet, but based on the spoilers I'm hearing this REALLY offers more proof for my "Timmain stranded the Palace on Abode 20,000 years ago ON PURPOSE because she believes suffering builds character" conspiracy theory.

It bolsters MY theory that The high ones were all as bright as a pile of bricks.

Just got the new issue and all I can say is WHAT THE HELL!!!!!

So how many elves are going to die trying to make it to the Palace.

Kathleen3.0 wrote:

It bolsters MY theory that The high ones were all as bright as a pile of bricks.

Now Kathleen that is doing a disservice to a pile of bricks

Just read it through and...yeah. Timmain is off with the fairies. Hey, maybe she's who Two Edge forms an alliance with - they're both as mad as snakes! And WTH Savah? The only sane one in that scenario at the moment is Skywise, and he's being overridden. What's the point of forcing everyone to travel who knows how far? And what if Ember DID want to go...she's on a different continent!?

But yeah, my first impression was 'filler' too.

Hope you're ok Manga!

Everyone on Facebook is so enthusiastic. And I just looked at all our comments- and they're entirely critical. Are we just the grumpy crew?

In the interest of adding something positive, I liked the art in this one a lot.

I seriously don't want to be negative, Luna, but the disappointment I have in the FQ series all together is a bit overwhelming and I haven't found anything pleasing about it all yet, be it the art, or the horrible dialogue.

I'm actually really really really sorry and I honestly feel terribly guilty for how I feel about it!  And more than anything, I want to like it, but it's just impossible when it seems like I'm reading something a 12 year old did, compared to the EQ I grew up with

Now after saying that, do you really think my comments would be left in the new EQ discussion board or on any of the EQ FB pages?

Nope. It would monitored before they are allowed to be posted, or deleted all together. We've already witnessed that done in the past, I'm afraid.

Pretty sure that's why only the enthusiastic comments are seen elsewhere. But that's just my opinion.... because whether they're positive OR negative about EQ, that's allowed here.