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Paranthropus

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PostSubject: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyTue Mar 20, 2018 3:45 pm

So, in the prologue to SATS Shuna is sending. That means that her retelling of events in SATS takes place AFTER Final Quest. But in her narration, she references things in the present-tense, referring to the Sun Folk as "dwell[ing]" in the Palace disguised as a hill, and she describes Cutter in such a way as though he is alive. Very confusing. Is this just a simple oversight because SATS was written before FQ and the timeline wasn't fully established yet?

Also, who the heck is Shuna telling this story to? Is she breaking the fourth wall? Because that would just be...weird.
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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyTue Mar 20, 2018 4:32 pm

I think she is speaking - SENDING - to Elves. Wolfriders and their offsprings or some of those tribes and individuals who decided to stay back on Abode.

About the present tense ... maybe it's ann attribute of sending? Sharing your memories this way perhaps draws the audiance in and makes it happen for them "right now"?

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Question about SATS & FQ Ba_hel10
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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyTue Mar 20, 2018 8:13 pm

Or maybe the present tense was part of establishing the setting. It was a pretty narrow window of time when the Sunfolk were in the Palace.
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Kindredsoul

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyTue Mar 20, 2018 10:08 pm

With all the retcon that's been done, we can't really take anything of previous stories and issues as any basis of fact, can we?

That and the fact that is was stated all the events that have happened have been "planned" from the very beginning scratch

I'm so confused, I don't even need any alcohol for how drunk all of this leaves my head spinning

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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyWed Mar 21, 2018 12:56 am

whatever the reason might have been when SatS was written, now it's probably the retelling of a story and being "in the moment"

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faeriegirl

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyWed Mar 21, 2018 3:03 am

Indeed.... sigh.

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Bluetree

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyWed Mar 21, 2018 5:03 pm

@Kindredsoul wrote:
With all the retcon that's been done, we can't really take anything of previous stories and issues as any basis of fact, can we?

That and the fact that is was stated all the events that have happened have been "planned" from the very beginning scratch

I'm so confused, I don't even need any alcohol for how drunk all of this leaves my head spinning

Gah, ^this.

Or "there are many truths" *teasing fluttering of eyelashes*, something something Worldpool, etc. etc. Just look for hints and clues! It's all perfectly clear!
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Kojiyumi

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyWed Mar 21, 2018 6:56 pm

I'm assuming at this stage somehow other humans have learned to send somehow... or she's learned to crack into the minds of others like Jean Grey or something... We know they can't be half-elves because that's a no-no in the EQ world. Unless it's not now, because what are rules? Just mash the retcon button enough and hope nobody remembers...?

It sounds like to me she's talking to non-elves because why would elves tell stories of essentially changelings stealing babes?  Elves or trolls?  So it must be random humans. Who've learned to send. And yet have never had interactions with elves because she has to tell them about them? But they can send.  And... and...

................

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[A]BORT/[R]ETRY/[F]AIL?
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Redhead Ember

Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyWed Mar 21, 2018 7:18 pm

@Kindredsoul wrote:
With all the retcon that's been done, we can't really take anything of previous stories and issues as any basis of fact, can we?

What, other than crazy Dodia in the cave has Final Quest retconned?
And I don't think they'd planned everything, just the overall arch; Cutter's connection with Timmain, his death, stuff like that.
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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyWed Mar 21, 2018 7:36 pm

That's definitely one part FQ has NOT retconned. ^^

SHARDS #16 contradicted the Fire-Eye storyline by showing Dodia in the Palace together with Dart's band. Mrs. Pini's original work is considered canon before works of other artists.
Furthermore Fire-Eye was stopped and Mr. Pini commented something along the lines: It took a wrong turn that will not fit with the plans we have for the further story. Non canon long before FQ.

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Question about SATS & FQ Ba_hel10
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Anduinel

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyThu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am

Wasn't that also when Warp was distancing itself from Barry Blair in general? That's a move I really can't fault them for, tbh.
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyThu Mar 22, 2018 5:23 pm

@Embala wrote:
That's definitely one part FQ has NOT retconned. ^^

SHARDS #16 contradicted the Fire-Eye storyline by showing Dodia in the Palace together with Dart's band. Mrs. Pini's original work is considered canon before works of other artists.
Furthermore Fire-Eye was stopped and Mr. Pini commented something along the lines: It took a wrong turn that will not fit with the plans we have for the further story. Non canon long before FQ.

Exactly. So many complains about retconning, yet the only obvious and blatant retconning was the retconning of what was itself basically a retconning. That was a lot of "retconning" in one sentence...
Remember our, at times rather silly if I recall correctly, discussion on the SoC about how Dodia, after arriving safe and sound in the Palace with the others, suddenly was living in the Forevergreen and being batshit crazy?
Heck, they even - rather subtly to be fair - acknowledged her pregnancy in her appearance in 'Shards'.
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manga

manga

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyThu Mar 22, 2018 6:16 pm

I think that's part of what has been driving everyone crazy, Ember. By acknowledging Dodia's pregnancy and Dart and his band at all, the Pinis have declared that the events of the Forevergreen are Canon. This picking and choosing, at apparent random, of story elements that we've been analyzing for nearly 20 years is disorienting and undermines our faith in the story.
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyThu Mar 22, 2018 6:20 pm

The events of the Forevergreen arch, the one that was merged with Shards and HY in Shards 16, are canon. The events of the Fire-Eye miniseries are not.
Or maybe some of the events are canon, while the detail regarding Dodia isn't. Who knows what Jethel and Chot were doing in the time between staying behind in the Forevergreen, and Chot getting captured by Ekolin? Who knows what Jethel might be up to right now?

Besides, wasn't Shards published before Fire-Eyes?
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manga

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyFri Mar 23, 2018 1:00 pm

I wasn't talking about Fire-Eye.  I was talking about the Rebels, where they clearly found Ahdri's spirit guarding the Little Palace. You asked what elements had been retconned other than Dodia's story. (Maybe I got mixed up and I mentioned that in a different thread? Sorry, I'm at work right now and my time to back-check the conversations is very limited.)
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptyFri Mar 23, 2018 1:29 pm

Final Quest didn't retcon that either.

And, again; I really don't care that much about what a secondary-level canon story is claiming. You can never touch - virtually or physically - any of the FutureQuest time storylines, and still be completely up-to-date with regards to the stories. Try to skip SaTS - you know the story that actually "retconned" the bit about Ahdri - and you'll be totally lost.
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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 12:04 am

What YOU really don't care about, Red, does not determine what every other Elfquest reader should care about. The fact that YOU aren't bothered by the retcons (and yes there are gobs of them) does not mean that every reader must be unbothered. If you are so annoyed that you can't persuade everyone on Father Tree to see things the way YOU do, then I'd suggest going to Facebook where nobody will ever dare disagree with your glowing opinions of Final Quest.
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Embala

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 12:56 am

Redhead Ember defends HER view on Final Quest. She asks why WE see it different and for our supporting evidence. She explains why SHE sees it different than the majority of the commenters here.
*bows in loving respect to Redhead's spunk and passion and love*

What I don't see her doing is to tell you or me or any of us what we have to think of FQ. There is no "YOU have to... " as far as I see. Redhead disagrees with us. She is as passionate in her unconditional love as we are with our criticism. And no matter if you or me or we may consider it blind love - it is her very right to tell her mind freely here. This is what FTH stands for.

This is not the exclusive home of the "grumpy crew" - FTH is build for all EQ fans! For the disappointed ones among as as well as for the enthusiastic ones. All kinds of views and opinions are welcome to be expressed and discussed here in a respectful way. And in the end we can agree that we disagree.

There is absolutely NO reason and NO right to send Redhead off to Facebook because she disagrees with most of us. No right to bite her away because SHE is still glowing for EQ. In contrary - this is a facet I think we could need more in addition to all the justified criticism.

We blame the Facebook page of not allowing the voice of criticsm and disappointment. We praise FTH for our tolarance to harsh critic, disappointment and explicit rant. How can we dare to ...  even think of supressing sheer unconditional love and glowing fangirling here in return?

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sun girl

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 1:12 am

I don't want to send anybody off anywhere and I'm not advocating "grumps only". But IF you CAN'T learn to COPE with disagreement, go where you won't meet it. Asking people to explain their views on Final Quest and then meeting their every response with arguments of barely more substance than "is not!" or "is too!" is not meaningful discourse. It's obtuse.
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wingthing

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 5:14 am

@Redhead Ember wrote:
Final Quest didn't retcon that either.

And, again; I really don't care that much about what a secondary-level canon story is claiming. You can never touch - virtually or physically - any of the FutureQuest time storylines, and still be completely up-to-date with regards to the stories. Try to skip SaTS - you know the story that actually "retconned" the bit about Ahdri - and you'll be totally lost.

Define "up-to-date" If you mean up-to-date on Pini-only works, well sure. But i thibk the point people are trying to make (unless I'm totally misreading) is that a lot us cherish or at least have a genuine interest in some of "secondary canon" stories and are pretty ticked when Wendy and Richard just wave their hands and go "Naw we got a new idea, so that's gone now!" or "oh well that was never canon anyway, teehee."

It strikes me as a terrible lack of respect for your own product, your writers and your fans.

But you're right in pointing out that the Great Pini Retcon predates Final Quest, Redhead. SatS was a mess of contradictions... i like to think of as the Retcon Training Wheels that eased Wendy into the wholesale massacre of previously established canon is Discovery* and yes, FQ!**

*Discovery rewrote some 80% of the Wavedancer backstory from EQ2, as well as removing the large time gap that produced Ardan Djarum, once a legitimate descendant of Grohmul Djun, and not just a crazy bastard son.

** Confining myself JUST to the Final Quest introductory special, we have the ghastly Timeline shakeup that saw an adult Khorbasi and at least teenage Sust and Pool at the same time that Chitter, conceived no more than 2 years later, is only 6ish. We have Teir and Ember happily together despite the fact that by the timeline established in Wild Hunt, she should still be with Mender and Teir should still be self- exiled. And on a minor but equally annoying note, Shuna's very last line in Discovery is how she doesn't want kids and Bee must accept that, and what goes down on the very first page of FQ??
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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 6:07 am

I mean up-to-date on the core stories. The storyline that got started way back in 1978 with OQ 1, and was finished just this year with FQ 24. The story of Cutter, you know; the main character of the Elfquest saga.
Though, it gets incredibly silly when people try to claim stuff in the BoTC novels as canon. You know, those books that aren't even available to everybody...

As for SaTS being a mess of contradictions, strange... I can literally not think of any other than the Ahdri thing...

Though I agree that the timeline thing at the beginning of the Special was a bit confusing, but I'm not gonna let such a minor detail deter my enjoyment of a great story.
And Shuna? Well, I have a suspicion that she may not have had that much access to birth control, and... sometimes pregnancies just happen.

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Miss Gillespie

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 9:20 am

She has access to the most powerful healer ever, though. Leetah could lengthen her life easily, sterilisation should be no problem

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Redhead Ember

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 10:27 am

Shuna and Ikopek were travelling. For all we know she found out about her pregnancy while she was somewhere far away from the Holt. And nobody probably thought to suggest that Leetah should sterilise Shuna, since for the elves the idea would be totally unthinkable.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about SATS & FQ   Question about SATS & FQ EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 3:05 pm

After NUMEROUS requests, this one is going in time out too. Honestly, people. Calm your beans.

This will come back in 24 hrs too.

Please can we remember to be respectful of ALL members opinions, even those you don't share. Thanks guys.

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