So they've basically killed the Scroll of Colors forum...

I didn't write that blog- and I didn't call anybody, including the Pinis, racist. That wasn't ever my point. And the person who wrote this blog (who I don't know) doesn't really call them racist either- she calls them insensitive and tone deaf to what other people are saying.

I also agree that there is a difference between outright mocking and just wanting to get a costume right. My take on it, personally, is that if someone tells you that your innocent costume is offensive to them because it inadvertently echoes a history of cultural mockery- and that, itself, is part of a history of discrimination and oppression that actually was very harmful... Just say 'okay- sorry! I didn't mean it. Won't happen again.' And don't do it again.

The worst thing you can do is argue back that you have the right to play around this way because it's fun for you and thereby imply it doesn't matter if you offend someone. Other people (who are European) have used the 'I'm European- I don't get racism' card in the past. I think the author here is just calling that out as baloney.

I wasn't trying to tell the Pinis that they were racist- or that their comic was racist. I was saying that line, and the idea of that happening in the story, made me uncomfortable because the comic book doesn't exist in a vacuum. Nothing does. It exists in a historical context, like everything else. And you'd have to be blind not to notice that there has been a lot of discrimination and lack of inclusion for people of color in our country- United States- where this story is written and published.

The only dark characters in Elfquest are the Sunfolk. If you turn the Sunfolk white, which can be totally rationalized, you've done away with a positive and inclusive aspect of the story. And it's completely unnecessary to the plot-- so why do it?

That's what I was saying.

And Richard said 'it's our story- we tell it like we choose.' To me, that's not a response- it's a non-statement. Anyone telling any story ever has told it as they choose. And the Earth is round. That's not addressing the issue or the point at all. And no matter how you choose to tell a story- you are going to get reactions and feedback from your audience... unless you keep it in your diary and show it to no one. He got offended that there was feedback. That's really immature for a published author. If you publish something and you host a discussion forum- people are going to talk about what you created... unless you are really unpopular and nobody cares. You can't do that and then freak out at the comments- and expect anyone to respect you for it. Because that's not professional- it's not even adult.

so suffice to say, yeah, whatever caused the SoC to close down, it sucks immensely because it's one less community for us to gather in. but i love the "catching the elves from the shattering palace" comment, very apt!^^

i'm glad people from the old forum are coming here. and i'll be glad to see old threads popping up again. speaking of which...*scuttles off*

and lunakat, i will agree with you. the story doesn't exist in a vacuum, people will put their interpretations to it. does it bother me to elves could get taller and paler? kinda but not really, but that's ME. and i understand how you mean about elfpop...it did very much seem he was saying "NO, MY story!" just...very possessive in a way.

Well, but it IS his story (their story)-- but the thing is.. so what? Anybody who makes up a story and tells it-- that's their story. They have a right to be possessive about it, because they own it and put years of hard work into it. We are readers- we do t own their story- it's not ours.

But they published it. That's the thing. They made it for public consumption- which means people will critique and react to it. That's the nature of the beast. Anyone who has ever published a story has gotten a reaction to it, for good or bad. It's was just absurd to act so outraged that people had opinions. If you don't want a review or a reaction- keep it in the pages of your diary- then you can be appalled that people are reading and reacting. But if you publish it-- and beyond publishing it, host a discussion forum for it--- and beyond that, drop into the discussion and grab a quote from someone and write the word 'discuss' next to it-- man up.

But yeah- I get that you guys want to drop this. Thanks for the kind words and seeing all sides.

*sees jaRf*



Don't care what thread it is... *commits Offtopic tackleglomping!*

jaRf_2015 wrote:

I am still in stressful waters of the river of life so don't expect much to see from me here. I might suddenly wake up if somebody screams "Rayek".

Just so you know.... I plan to test this theory... not saying when... but I'm gonna test it!!

I wonder who thought this was a good idea without warning us first... Really, it happened so suddenly.

A post from Wendy on facebook:

Not surprisingly, Elfquest tends to attract readers who have been through the mill for being "different" in some way. They identify with the characters, who have been persecuted by a harsh world just for being who they are and living the way they live. Our readers, generally, are peaceful warriors fighting to be heard even though their song is different from that of the majority. Their feelings and opinions are strong. Richard and I happen to love that. We don't tolerate rudeness and disrespect. But, otherwise, all are welcome.

How subtle.

That's not really an excuse for the manner in which they did it... Abrupt, without warning.

We Elfquest fans here do not tolerate anymore brutal and respectless changes that were never discussed or voted upon, especially without warning, be they inflicted to us by Richard or Wendy or Rob or just anyone.

Vaeri wrote:

oh yay Wingthing, i'm so glad to see you here!!*hugs* i was afraid you'd be locked out too, i loved being able to comment about specific things with the swiftverse!

and wordgazer, if you REALLY want to read the conversation, here. http://elfquest.com/forums/discussion/8616/elfquest-final-quest-9-cover/p2 it started here, and went on a page or two. *sigh*

Thank you, Vaeri.  I never read that thread because I prefer not to speculate in advance too much about what's coming next in the series; I'd rather just take it as it comes.  That said, it was pretty hard to read that conversation now, even after the fact, because I felt kind of the way I do when family members fight. I just wish they wouldn't! But I'm glad I read it now, and I have to agree that it's a better thing for fans to discuss how we feel about a piece without the authors looking over our shoulders.  It's like when I went to a book club meeting where we had invited the author to join us for a book talk.  I would rather have had a discussion.  Instead we asked her questions about her book and she answered. No one felt free to talk about anything negative.

PCoquelin, I sort of disagree that members of a forum should get to discuss and vote on every forum change-- I wouldn't expect our Timmain/Kindredsoul to put everything up to a vote!  Fair warning for any major change is all I ask.

Blackbird wrote:

A post from Wendy on facebook:

Not surprisingly, Elfquest tends to attract readers who have been through the mill for being "different" in some way. They identify with the characters, who have been persecuted by a harsh world just for being who they are and living the way they live. Our readers, generally, are peaceful warriors fighting to be heard even though their song is different from that of the majority. Their feelings and opinions are strong. Richard and I happen to love that. We don't tolerate rudeness and disrespect. But, otherwise, all are welcome.

I responded to this on Facebook, as follows:

I am definitely one of those people who has never felt like they fit in. I tend to see both sides of things and so often find myself flying in between an "us" and a "them." When it comes to the rudeness and disrespect thing, sometimes there are overreactions on both sides of a conversation. It's too bad when that happens, and when long-term fan-creator relationships turn sour over something that I wish could have been resolved. Anyway, that's all. I love Elfquest and its fans!

For the record, I thought the overreactions were mostly Richard's.  But I'm not going to say that to Wendy Pini...

I honestly don't think I was that rude to him. I think I was straightforward. The last thing I expected to get was a "why are you still here, then?" in response. That just seemed incredibly reactionary. And I'm still wondering if he's so insecure that he can't handle even a minor criticism or disagreement. In fact- I'm wondering it even more now.

Overall, that was a nice message by Wendy. It seems like an attempt to smooth things over- and that's to be appreciated. I could be wrong- but she's always struck me as a sincere person. I would note, though, that regarding what is "tolerated"... the last individual to use that term with me (who wasn't making some political point about gay marriage) was my dad.

I think your response was solid, Krword. Thanks.

Lunakat wrote:

I honestly don't think I was that rude to him. I think I was straightforward. The last thing I expected to get was a "why are you still here, then?" in response. That just seemed incredibly reactionary. And I'm still wondering if he's so insecure that he can't handle even a minor criticism or disagreement. In fact- I'm wondering it even more now.

No, Lunakat, you weren't rude at all. You were forthright and articulate - and he just went into attack mode. It was jaw-dropping, for lack if a better word.

Though, for the record, I think most people would take "Are you really so insecure that you can't X?" as an attack. I know you just meant to be upfront, Lunakat, but that's some pretty aggressive phrasing. Not that you are to blame for what happened, I'm just pointing out that most people aren't likely to respond with "You know what? I really am insecure. Thanks for pointing that out!"

Yeah- you're right. I actually logged back on to change that shortly after i wrote it- but he was already freaking out.

You guys can blame me if you want. And if you do, I apologize to all of you. I didn't really care if I was offending Richard with anything I said at the time. I thought he was being pretty irrational and over the top- and I'd had an experience earlier that day, unfortunately, with a bullshit person that put me in a pretty undiplomatic mood. I wasn't trying to piss him off... But I really didn't care if I did either.

The reason I wanted to change the comment had nothing to do with whether it would offend him. It was just because I suspected he would fixate on it and not answer any other points... which is exactly what happened.

He could have responded by saying "I'm absolutely not insecure" and proven it with a calm and level response- but instead he rather confirmed it. I was fully prepared to never come back to the forum. I would never have guessed that he would take his irritation at my comments out on everybody by shutting it down with no notice. I mean.. it's not like we regularly insult him or anything. 90% of what we wrote there was straight up praise. This is one of a very few criticisms we ever voiced.

I personally think Richard just nuked the old forum and Wendy went along with his idea.

i for one do not blame you lunakat. i think you should have been able to speak your mind, and for people to ask about certain things that are bothering them. it would have been nice if richard had answered with some sentimental thing... "skin is only skin, but the soul will never change!" or something.

i will agree in i think the forum was shut down as a form of petty retaliation. which is extremely disappointing and anger inducing.

Thanks, guys.. What a long, strange trip it's all turned out to be. Oh well.

I still think the forum was shut down over the cosplay discussion. I think Richard freaked out about the racism allegations-- for the reasons I posted earlier when I linked about "white fragility." And I'm not really sure I blame him for that.  This whole issue of "racism means you're evil, it can't be just being blind" is a cultural problem that he didn't cause.  

I don't know the order of the two conversations-- the one we're discussing now and the cosplay one-- which came first, but I think this one by itself would never have caused that response.

For the record, the only comment by Luna that I thought was problematic was the "are you so insecure" one. Richard, however, had come out swinging the first time anyone said the word "should."

I don't blame you, Luna. No matter how undiplomatic the comment from one fan, or how uncomfortable a thread is, shutting down an entire forum with no warning at all to the many other users is not right.

I think this is why a author never should hang around his own fanbase, they would know it will not only be praise and love ( Like facebook is now ) but discussions, critique, and people who don't agree or love everything you have done, and if you can't ignore that... Maybe it was better back in the old days when they barely was there, just some wendywords..( and my favorite: Ask elfmom )

But...I see Robs name coming up here and there, and maybe it's because I was gone for a long time, but what is his role in all this? AT first I thought he was just a fan like us, but then he was the one to talk to about loggin problems and such? And David? I get he his more than a fan, but what more? ( See, I have been away for a while ) oh, and maybe I answered my own question, is David Thornebrake?

Yes, David is Thornbrake. I think he is/was one of the site admins. And seems to be somewhat in charge of stuff in the facebook groups also...

Okey, I kinda figured that out after posting But what about Rob? And Heather?

I'm not sure what their position is now, but they were in charge of the forum when we still had a forum... maybe they're in charge of the new setup now.