Bad Moments from Favourite Characters

I guess so. Agree to disagree.

Lunakat wrote:

What were his feelings about Cutter as chief (or anyone other than Moonshade and Scouter)?

I'm pretty sure One-Eye didn't have any specific feelings about Moonshade, other than maybe "I like the clothes she makes."

But why does it have to be either "Team One-Eye" or "Team Treestump"? Can't you like Clearbrook with both? I'm sure the three of them were already friends before One-Eye died, in fact I think the four of them were friends before Rillfisher died, and that Clearbrook and One-Eye probably helped Treestump with the grief of losing Rillfisher.

Clearly I meant Clearbrook, silly. You know that.

Of course you can like both. Some people were pitting them against each other, I guess because they were both love interests for Clearbrook?

My only point was that I think One Eye was one of those underdeveloped characters who are thrown in there to, basically, die. He's only a step above a recurring background character, with minimal personality to him-- who gets his big cameo right before he is killed off. (I threw Treestump in for contrast-- as an example of a character who I thought was better/more consistently developed.) Embala was explaining how that kind of character is fun and appealing, because he allows readers to project onto him the characteristics we imagine he should have. And Wingthing was disagreeing with Embala-- then describing the characteristics she thinks he has-- most of which I thought she had projected onto him. (We agreed to disagree about whether that was the case or not.)

Hope that makes sense!

Of course I knew! Doesn't mean I can't tease you about it.

And I think One-Eye was fleshed out just enough that his death would come as a shock. I'd say he loved Clearbrook and Scouter very much, and might have been a bit protective towards Scouter, having already lost one child. I also think he was rather close to his brother; wasn't it Longbranch who rescued him after he was captured by humans? However, their relationship wasn't so close it rubbed off on their children; Nightfall and Scouter never refer to each other as cousin.

Redhead Ember wrote:

And I think One-Eye was fleshed out just enough that his death would come as a shock.

Exactly!

Quote :

I'd say he loved Clearbrook and Scouter very much, and might have been a bit protective towards Scouter, having already lost one child. I also think he was rather close to his brother; wasn't it Longbranch who rescued him after he was captured by humans? However, their relationship wasn't so close it rubbed off on their children; Nightfall and Scouter never refer to each other as cousin.

Exactly!

Speaking of Nightfall-- does she have any bad moments?

Skywise does. They all center around Aroree. Cutter chews him out for getting frisky with Aroree instead of guessing that he should have been watching Suntop and Ember-- but I think that was actually Cutter's bad. He and Leetah are the parents. But every single member of their tribe was supposed to individually guess (without being told) that no one was watching the kids? Or rather, that only several of them were doing so-- but not enough to fight off an attack and babysit at the same time? Nah-- I don't buy it.

I do think, though, that Skywise let his infatuation for Aroree turn him into a terrible advisor. He pushed for the entire tribe to stay in the mountain when they could have safely left-- because he was impressed with his recent rise through the sky. And then, later, he encouraged Cutter to exit the mountain via Tenspan-- just because he thought it was cool. Aroree turned him into th worst advisor on the planet. And that's so his own fault. He went gaga over a girl and completely lost perspective.

Lunakat wrote:

Ok- but describe his personality. How does he feel about his brother? What were his feelings about Cutter as chief (or anyone other than Moonshade and Scouter)? What was his reaction to losing his eye? How did he change because of that? Or did he? Who was his best friend? What was his sense of humor like? How Did he feel about humans? How do you know?

I can answer a ton of questions about Treestump's opinions, feelings and personality. I can't think of anything much regarding One Eye-- short of that he was a nice, average guy.

I actually mostly agree with you that One-Eye doesn't get as much development as most of the other elves, but some of this I think we do get (and a lot of it Wingthing has already gotten into):

Reaction to losing his eye: We see the scene where this happens -- he changes his name! And yet, at the same time he is quite matter of fact about it. "Guess it's One-Eye from now on, chief." (Or something to that effect.) He's not happy about it, but he'll deal. Keep on keeping on.

Opinion about humans: He very much assumes them to be a threat even when presented with evidence to the contrary (i.e. the non-poisoned meat at Blue Mountain) -- he specifically says something like, "I could almost believe these humans don't mean us any harm -- hah, that'll be the day!" And yet, interestingly we're not shown him bearing an intense grudge like Scouter and Clearbrook have toward trolls after his death, despite the eye, the holt burning down, etc. So maybe this is just inference or whatever, but I get the sense from what we do see that he views humans like he would a group of dangerous animals or an act of nature -- something inherently dangerous to be worked around to the extent possible.

How did he feel about Cutter: Indeed, we don't get much of this, but he's super glad to see Cutter when he shows up yet still refers to his "mad quest." My feeling, based on what we get -- "Kid has weird ideas, still my chief" -- basically, a traditional Wolfrider but way less ideological about it than Strongbow, and not inclined to the same sort of resentment when he thinks someone's wrong.

Sense of humor: Understated, slightly tending toward gallows humor, like the name change, the "Hey Cutter, glad you didn't get yourself killed."

Something else I haven't seen touched on -- he doesn't like living in Sorrow's End. When Moonshade says that some of the Wolfriders have never been happy here, he chimes in with "Aye!" quite emphatically. Apparently really regrets losing the Wolfrider way of life, which fits with his dealing so matter-of-factly with danger -- if life has been mainly about going about your daily business while dodging dangerous obstacles, and that's something you're basically fine with, the sudden lack of obstacles is going to feel weird.

So, the overall picture I get of One-Eye is someone who is intensely practical (as wingthing says), pretty unimaginative, kind of horrified at frippery, yet takes death, danger, and grievous wounding with relative aplomb. A devoted Wolfrider who isn't given to making a big deal of it. Not inclined to get worked up about stuff generally. Which does kind of equate to "nice guy everyelf," but with I think at least a few telling nuances.

Lunakat wrote:

Speaking of Nightfall-- does she have any bad moments?

This whole thread started with a bad Nightfall moment. Her harsh refusal of Rayek's - if somewhat awkward and clumsy - attempt to apologise in HY8.

And so it comes full circle...

I think the relationship between Scouter and Nightfall was a total retcon unfortunately.

Well, it was only revealed during Wolfrider that Nightfall was the daughter of Longbranch and Brownberry, but before that there was no indication that she wasn't their daughter. Just like it was only revealed during HY5 that Pike was the son of Rain, and of course Mender and Sust have shown no sign of acknowledging the fact that they're cousins, or even knowing it.

One-Eye looks rather badass, despite wearing a nightcap. Treestump looks like a garden gnome. Having a nice design helps with being popular (a bit like in real world, eh?)

Redhead Ember wrote:

I'd say he loved Clearbrook and Scouter very much, and might have been a bit protective towards Scouter, having already lost one child.[/b].

Name one couple which doesn't love each other very much. That's standard behaviour in EQ. The same goes for being very protective towaeds their children. Well, Go Backs are an exception.

I think one of the reason why no one likes Scouter is that he attacked Skywise and later Ember, even though most elves would have reacted in a similar way. In both cases his mate and cub were in enemy's hand and Dewshine was even mortally wounded! That he got that ugly facefur didn't help, either.

I'm fairly certain most elves would NOT have left an injured Ember for dead in the snow.

When the tribe split after the Two-Spear-Skyfire challenge, Two-Spears followers just left. Including Ice-Tooth, Skyfire's lovemate and Willowgreen, the only true healer. Despite Skyfire being badly injured.

When the challenges escalate to that point, I think it's just standard protocol to leave the looser. No matter the state they are in.

It may be standard protocol, but it's seriously shitty behavior. On another note however , it was during a time when the elves really were divided and physically left with another chief out of choice. There didn't seem like there was a choice given in Wildhunt, they just followed lamely. It may be the rule of wolves or whatever but it isn't comparable to Skyfire and Twospear

Redhead Ember wrote:

Well, it was only revealed during Wolfrider that Nightfall was the daughter of Longbranch and Brownberry, but before that there was no indication that she wasn't their daughter. Just like it was only revealed during HY5 that Pike was the son of Rain.

Oh yes there was. In the Blood of Ten Chiefs short story collection, the first book, in the in between/frame stories written by Richard Pini-- she is identified as the daughter of an elf named Amber (I think)-- whereas Pike is always identified as Rain's son. Pike was meant to be Rain's son from the start. He has the same hair color and bushy hair style. He has the big eyes and round cheeks of his sister. But Nightdall doesn't look like Longreach or Brownberry. Her hair and eye color make no sense for that-- nor does her facial structure. It's clearly a revision of their original concept for her.

Lunakat wrote:

In the Blood of Ten Chiefs short story collection, the first book, in the in between/frame stories written by Richard Pini-- she is identified as the daughter of an elf named Amber (I think)-- whereas Pike is always identified as Rain's son.

Off topic, but it always dismayed me how the in between stories were dropped in the other of the BoTC anthologies. While the later way made it easier to follow the themes, the in between stories made them feel so organic.

I really liked them too! Richard was a good writer. He should have written more.

I also wish that Wolfrider hadn't revised them so much. It was more interesting when there was the hint of other characters and all these little moments and untold stories. I felt like Wolfrider just economized everything and made it less.. I dunno... rich.

Richard basically wrote some of my favorite stories. Him and t Rahnee's writer, they were so good!

Yeah! Like how Bearclaw went to spend time around Rain when he was feeling anxious, Brownberry (at least I think it was Brownberry?) Who kept working with clay, trying to get it to follow her creative thoughts. The whole Swift-Spear story was told to warn everyone what angering the humans might start, likewise the Snowbeast was told how clever thinking can also avert disaster. Longreach easing Bearclaws worries as his cub is growing bolder... Little things like that, small yet enriching.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Redhead Ember wrote:

I'd say he loved Clearbrook and Scouter very much, and might have been a bit protective towards Scouter, having already lost one child.[/b].

Name one couple which doesn't love each other very much. That's standard behaviour in EQ. The same goes for being very protective towaeds their children. Well, Go Backs are an exception.

True, but that doesn't make it any less part of One-Eye's personality.

Lunakat wrote:

Oh yes there was. In the Blood of Ten Chiefs short story collection, the first book, in the in between/frame stories written by Richard Pini-- she is identified as the daughter of an elf named Amber (I think)-- whereas Pike is always identified as Rain's son. Pike was meant to be Rain's son from the start. He has the same hair color and bushy hair style. He has the big eyes and round cheeks of his sister. But Nightdall doesn't look like Longreach or Brownberry. Her hair and eye color make no sense for that-- nor does her facial structure. It's clearly a revision of their original concept for her.

Except that other one - Amber - is only mentioned once, in a story which is part of the somewhat "unexplored depths" of the tales from the Wolfriders' past. The BoTC novels are not the comics. Longbranch and Brownberry, otoh, are from the comics, introduced as far back as issue 4 of the OQ. I'm more inclined to believe that Brownberry mother, than some person who's never been mentioned, or even alluded to in the comics. More people - I'd say - have read the comics than the prose stories.
I'm sorry, but I can't put anything the prose stories say above anything being said in the comics, if there's disagreement between the two, I'll always consider the comics to be the truth.

And when was it confirmed black-on-white that Pike was Rain's son?


As for bad moments:

I always got a little "Huh?" about how Shuna in Discovery goes all "Oh! The Spirits are so Lucky! They just know when they're supposed to mate for life!" Clearly as a reference to Recognition.
Uhm... you wanna talk to Dewshine about that?

No one is saying that she's not their kid, just that it clearly wasn't their original intention to have them as her parents, and they got shoe horned into the role at the last minute when Wendy remembered Nightfall was around about Cutter's age and no one had been picked as her parents. So they grabbed the closest couple and said, "Congratulations, you've always had a bouncing baby girl!"

Well... it's not a far step to go from:

They're a couple to They're a recognized couple, and therefore had a child.

I think making them a couple was also an afterthought. When Longreach and Brownberry interact in the BoTC interstitial stories-- there is no indication they are recognized. He treats her like any other tribe member and vice versa. In fact, it's pretty clear they do t have that close a relationship, because he doesnt know about her desire and issues with shaping clay. She has to explain it to him-- and it's a surprise. And he is featured in all those little stories without any mention of having a life mate, a casual girlfriend or a baby mama. They are a retcon couple.

You are kind of missing the point Red. We aren't saying it's impossible-- just something that Wendy decided, after the fact, when she was writing Wolfrider--- probably because it would have been too complicated to write in and kill off Nightfall's parents. So she just used the two uncoupled background elves from the Madcoil flashback. It would have made the world more interesting though, I think-- plus lent credence to the assertion that a Wolfrider's life is "short and sharp" to have had a couple more of them die -- not by human hands, but just some natural accident (like Rillfisher). Humans can't have been responsible for every bad thing ever. I mean-- they lived in the woods and hunted for a living for heck sake. There had to have been accidents.

changing concepts later in the story is not unusual. TRIVIA TIME! in Lion King, Scar was actually suppose to be completely unrelated to Simba, but it was decided later that the story would be much more emotionally impacting if the threat came from inside the family rather than out.

anyway my extra two cents. favorite character: Moonshade! least favorite moment...her gotdanged attitude during Shard Wars when she was traveling with Ember's group. "oh i'll go with her and be her elder!" then we get" high ones damnit cub, LISTEN TO ME ONLY! what? you want to make your own decisions i don't agree with? HOW DARE YOU"

and that spiel about "we don't have time for an untried chief!" which i thank Nightfall for rebutting sensibly! it was just all...bitchy and whiny and tantrums, and i loved Moonshade best when she was cool as brightmetal with a sharp sense of humor. not to mention she looked kinda ugly at times in that art style, ugh >.< wtf Moonshade, what happened to your gorgeous dark brown curly locks??T_T

Well I'd still say there were subtle hints that they were a couple as far back as in the Madcoil Flashback. When they were heading out for that fateful hunt the two of them were walking together, not right next to each other being all lovey-dovey, but still together with a sort of look between them. Besides, when you think about it, they're the only ones in that flash back who could be Nightfall's parents, and when you compare it to HY5 there is no other "couple" who could potentially have recognized, and then died in the time between then and Madcoil's attack.
The two of them not acting like a couple in those BoTC stories could be easily explained by saying it was before they recognized. Must take place pretty far back in time if Longbranch was still Longreach.
So in the comics nothing whatsoever had been mentioned about who Nightfall's parents were before Wolfrider. Making it not a retcon but a reveal. Maybe a reveal to Wendy and Richard too, but still not a retcon, because it didn't change already established facts. Nobody named Amber has been seen, mentioned, or even alluded to, in the comics.

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As for bad moments; how come nobody has mentioned Kimo's not-so-bright decision to change during the Final Quest Special, indirectly causing Ikopek's death? Sure, he needed to warn them about the potential attack from the humans, but it's not like seeing him change made them any less distrustful.
However, maybe it was not so much a stand-alone bad moment from Kimo, but more an overall bad "tactic" from the four of them. Travelling together for 20+ years, and never coming with some way Kimo - in his wolf-form - could warn the others of potential dangers.

Or what about Cutter's decision to bring Shuna along to the Wavedancers' cove in Discovery? It might have been somewhat easier for them to reason with Surge if he hadn't spotted Shuna and thus - in his mind - been proved right about the danger of the "Landers".