Final Quest #9

TrollHammer wrote:

Hmm... wonder if the stratigy used in the origional wavedancers against boats will be allowed to work with the freshly made boats of Djin's fleet?

If I'm not much mistaken - and I might be since I haven't read OWD - the strategy they used was Redcrest; plantshaping, so I suppose fresh wood should be easier.




BTW; you mean Djun, not djins here, as far as I know.

I competely understand Timmain's decision not to just go and pick every wandering elf up with Palace pods. I had the elves make a similar choice in a fanfic of mine once. (The story in question is called 'Beyond Mere Flight'.)

Miss Gillespie wrote:

I imagine, that there are also probably several Wavedancers going to perish when Angrif finally attacks them.

My variation of that sentence is:

I imagine, all of the Wavedancers going to perish when Angrif finally attacks them.

But that's just wishful thinking.

well, since most of the elves are going to grow tall anyway, one could also as easily kill off the last tall-grown elves tribe

Miss Gillespie wrote:

well, since most of the elves are going to grow tall anyway, one could also as easily kill off the last tall-grown elves tribe

And pale... don't forget pale!

Leanan wrote:

I competely understand Timmain's decision not to just go and pick every wandering elf up with Palace pods. I had the elves make a similar choice in a fanfic of mine once. (The story in question is called 'Beyond Mere Flight'.)

I remember this story-- but there was a specific reason in it that Skywise didn't go pick up Kahvi. Can you explain what your thoughts are on Timmain's decision in Final Quest?

Lunakat wrote:

Can you explain what your thoughts are on Timmain's decision in Final Quest?

I can do it in two words.

Plot. Hook.

No- I meant Leanan's thoughts! I've already thought your thoughts, Tymber!

Tymber wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

Can you explain what your thoughts are on Timmain's decision in Final Quest?

I can do it in two words.

Plot. Hook.

We so need to do a Cinema Sins on EQ...

Lunakat wrote:

Can you explain what your thoughts are on Timmain's decision in Final Quest?

Hmmm, let's see...

Remember in 'Discovery' where the Palace suddenly just appeared to the Wavedancers with very little prior warning? Remember how many of them reacted with fear? It was too much for them, too suddenly, and the promises of the occupants of the Palace seemed too good to be true? How Surge saw them as a new enemy?

I'm thinking Timmain doesn't want that to happen again. She wants those who arrive to the Palace to do so by their own choice, and for that to take them long enough for them to get used to the idea of the Palace and all it represents. (If some die on such a journey, well, they will just reach their end quicker - as spirits.)

And she wants those who choose not to answer the call to have that right, in full. If they are content with the lives they have - as tree-elves or goatriders or whatever - they can keep that life, cling to their "smaller truth" undisturbed, and stay on Abode for the rest of their lives, being part of that world.

Also, nothing is for ever when the Palace is concerned. Those dwelling in it can leave some pods behind. Perhaps make more items similar to the 'Little Palace', also. They can return to Abode every few centuries to pick up elves who changed their minds, and elves who weren't yet born on the previous visit.

Oh, and it's a plot hook too. As the similar situation was in my fanfic.

Leanan wrote:

Oh, and it's a plot hook too. As the similar situation was in my fanfic.  

You my dear, rock.

Tymber wrote:

You my dear, rock.

Thank you.

Leanan wrote:

Lunakat wrote:

Can you explain what your thoughts are on Timmain's decision in Final Quest?

Hmmm, let's see...

Remember in 'Discovery' where the Palace suddenly just appeared to the Wavedancers with very little prior warning? Remember how many of them reacted with fear? It was too much for them, too suddenly, and the promises of the occupants of the Palace seemed too good to be true? How Surge saw them as a new enemy?

I'm thinking Timmain doesn't want that to happen again. She wants those who arrive to the Palace to do so by their own choice, and for that to take them long enough for them to get used to the idea of the Palace and all it represents. (If some die on such a journey, well, they will just reach their end quicker - as spirits.)

And she wants those who choose not to answer the call to have that right, in full. If they are content with the lives they have - as tree-elves or goatriders or whatever - they can keep that life, cling to their "smaller truth" undisturbed, and stay on Abode for the rest of their lives, being part of that world.

Also, nothing is for ever when the Palace is concerned. Those dwelling in it can leave some pods behind. Perhaps make more items similar to the 'Little Palace', also. They can return to Abode every few centuries to pick up elves who changed their minds, and elves who weren't yet born on the previous visit.

Oh, and it's a plot hook too. As the similar situation was in my fanfic.  

IF it had been laid out like that, I think I'd have an easier time accepting it. Right now, however, she seems autocratic. I understand why other elves would listen and defer to her but did I miss her election as queen?

Is she being as controlling as Rayek and Winnowill? Or is she maybe still too wolf-like and simply communicating too simply?

Her behaviour serves two reason, to add more drama to the elves trying to reach Blue Mountain and two make the recognition between her and Skywise at least a little bit surprising (for him).

Don't try to understand plot hooks, they don't really make sense

You know, Timmain could also have conveyed her reasoning by sending. Unless she has something to hide.

I guess Cutter has to be there to witness Skywise's recognition... because they are so codependent at this point. You know, as much as I have loved that relationship over the years... I'm really gunning for Skywise to go on and get his own life at this point. It's probably gonna be brief-lived... but at least I hope he finds something he can enjoy outside of Cutter.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Her behaviour serves two reason, to add more drama to the elves trying to reach Blue Mountain and two make the recognition between her and Skywise at least a little bit surprising (for him).
Don't try to understand plot hooks, they don't really make sense

You think Timmain can Recognize? It just seems she's... above that.

And amen to plot hooks...

Lunakat wrote:

You know, Timmain could also have conveyed her reasoning by sending. Unless she has something to hide.
I guess Cutter has to be there to witness Skywise's recognition... because they are so codependent at this point. You know, as much as I have loved that relationship over the years... I'm really gunning for Skywise to go on and get his own life at this point. It's probably gonna be brief-lived... but at least I hope he finds something he can enjoy outside of Cutter.

Heh... it'd be nice if Skywise wasn't such a latch on to Cutter.

Talk about some very serious co-dependent issues...

Tymber wrote:

Heh... it'd be nice if Skywise wasn't such a latch on to Cutter.

Talk about some very serious co-dependent issues...

I know! Can't you just imagine Bearclaw's spirit showing up in the palace and being all "I know I said 'Always stick by him'... but I swear this isn't what I meant."

Wouldn't be funny if Timmain did recognize. I mean think of the endless possibilities here.

lunakat wrote:

You know, Timmain could also have conveyed her reasoning by sending. Unless she has something to hide.

She didn't really get a chance to. Savah pretty much stepped in instantly and did the explaining. Maybe Savah has simply spent enough time with Timmain to know that certain things she's just really bad at explaining.

Tymber wrote:

You think Timmain can Recognize? It just seems she's... above that.

She's already Recognized once, shortly after the Crash. Sure, Timmorn was born outside Recognition - because obviously you can't Recognize a wolf - but Timmain's daughter...

manga wrote:

IF it had been laid out like that, I think I'd have an easier time accepting it.  Right now, however, she seems autocratic.  I understand why other elves would listen and defer to her but did I miss her election as queen?

Is she being as controlling as Rayek and Winnowill?  Or is she maybe still too wolf-like and simply communicating too simply?

Well... she IS a High One, which makes her practically a goddess. And I don't think the elves are democrats... chiefs give the orders and tribemembers obey, and if someone disagrees they have to challenge the chieftainship itself, not just the issue... and since challenges are "duels" of strength and skill, among the wolfriders at least, "might makes right". Of course the chiefs do accept advice, at least from those they trust, but they have no obligation to explain their reasoning to the others. The whole 'Blood of Chiefs' thing makes the Wolfrider tribe practically a monarchy.

None of it makes sense from our point of view, but it's part of the story.

She's no goddess by any definition I accept. Powerful, yes. Able to do things others can't, yes. Wiser than others? Maybe. I have doubts. (Look at how she handled things with Skywise. I'm starting to think Wingthing's idea that Timmain is deliberately experimenting on the elves is right.) She's an elf, like the ones from Northern European myths, but not a god.Not only has she not shown any ability to save anyone in a truly meaningful, lasting way, but she doesn't seem to have any desire to do so either.

I get that my definition isn't going to be everyone's but I strongly feel that the term "god" should have more meaning to it than "superhero." You might as well call Superman, Batman or Ironman "gods." They inspire no faith, no love or lasting personal change. They just blow things up. They can save you from the truck the bad guy throws at your office window but they can't elevate you to their level, which is the whole point of Christ's Atonement.

I wonder what other term we could use. "Demon" fits for the level of power displayed but has a more negative connotation than is called for in this case. "Angel" doesn't fit at all because she's not a messenger or forerunner for anyone else. "Deva," perhaps? I don't know enough about that mythological tradition to say. Hm.

The last word bugged me at first read ... and then gave shivers. I dislike this emphasized "... those who find their way to ME --". Why not "to the Palace", "to our true HOME", "to US" ... ?

manga wrote:

She's no goddess by any definition I accept.
I get that my definition isn't going to be everyone's but I strongly feel that the term "god" should have more meaning to it than "superhero." You might as well call Superman, Batman or Ironman "gods." They inspire no faith, no love or lasting personal change. They just blow things up. They can save you from the truck the bad guy throws at your office window but they can't elevate you to their level, which is the whole point of Christ's Atonement.
I wonder what other term we could use. "Demon" fits for the level of power displayed but has a more negative connotation than is called for in this case. "Angel" doesn't fit at all because she's not a messenger or forerunner for anyone else. "Deva," perhaps? I don't know enough about that mythological tradition to say. Hm.

I think you're missing it though. While YOU may not call her a goddess in your world - Timmain was a High One, and the High Ones, were, to the Wolfriders, as I always read it, their "gods."

Their "By the High Ones!" expression of surprise, is no different, I think, than when someone says, "Oh my God!"

So I do believe, the term goddess, applies to Timmain, in regards to the Wolfriders, because they - for lack of a better word, I believe - worshiped the High Ones as celestial beings of gods/goddess type level.

And the way I read it the Wolfriders have no concept of a "GOD" at all. They have legends about their ancestors ... and "by the High Ones" is not different than "Timmorn's Blood!" or "By Two-Spear's shaft!"

Embala wrote:

And the way I read it the Wolfriders have no concept of a "GOD" at all. They have legends about their ancestors ... and "by the High Ones" is not different than "Timmorn's Blood!" or "By Two-Spear's shaft!"

You know, that's an excellent point! I hadn't thought of the expression "Timmorn's Blood" which they frequently said as well. And while I don't think the Wolfriders have a concept of "God" (a single being), but I guess I always read it as them thinking of the High Ones as these "god" like beings - because the humans had a "god" (Gotra or whatever it was, or I assume was a god, that the humans were going to sacrifice Redlance too) in Original Quest.

The Elves don't have a belief in God-- but they do venerate their ancestors. And it makes sense, considering that their predecessors were magical, powerful beings who knew all the secrets of their history and true identities (something that had been a veiled myth to the elves until the Palace was finally discovered).

I can see why Timmain's word would be final in the eyes of the other elves. But I do also agree that her phrasing 'all who find their way to <b>me</b>" is a little creepy.