Final Quest #9

Oh, it's so creepy. Mark my words, one day we'll look back on that panel as the moment Timmain crossed the event horizon of evil.

Power corrupts, man.

I don't think I see Wendy actually doing this but it'd be interesting if Timmain passed the event horizon of evil just as Winnowill started coming back the other way.

Who knows, maybe that is the shocking revelation: the Wolfriders descended from a High One, who is as shit as Haken, but doesn't even have black hair!

(And the reason,why Jink is not allowed to enter the palace is, that her father dared to get an own life and her mother is evil

Miss Gillespie brings up a good point! The Palace is now full of Sunfolk, many of whom have black hair. It must be slowly filling with evil!

I don't think the Pinis will do this either, but if they do this and actually make Timmain a villain to rival Winnowill, and the palace the ultimate trap I will swallow my pride and forgive them for everything. That would be the ultimate mind(retracted)!

Whether Timmain qualifies as a goddess or not is beside the point. You asked:

manga wrote:

but did I miss her election as queen?

And she certainly qualifies as queen. The firstcomers elected her as their leader, and now that she is reunited with her offspring, they look up to her for leadership, for reasons others have listed here.

Here's the thing, Leanan: queens don't do "leadership." They do orders. You do what they say because you have no choice. Leadership is showing the way, not ordering the way, and they've covered that kind of behavior (and how bad it is) three times: with Winnowill, Rayek and Haken. So it's really disturbing now to see Timmain doing the same.

Wouldn't that depend on what kind of queen we're talking about?

Looking at Timmain and Skywise's "No." "But--" "No." we're not looking at anything but an absolute monarch type approach.

manga wrote:

Looking at Timmain and Skywise's "No." "But--" "No." we're not looking at anything but an absolute monarch type approach.

I fixed what you meant to say.

manga wrote:

Looking at Timmain and Skywise's "No." "But--" "No." we're not looking at anything but an absolute ß!+ch type approach.

It's not completely bitchy or monarch-like. She just said no. She didn't say "no, you moron"-- or "stfu-no!" or even "Nay, peon!" She said no, and then Savah explained. My mom has said much worse to me. Skywise could have tried to argue it more, but he didn't. Or if he did, maybe we didn't see it. Maybe they hashed it out off camera... but if he bowed down to her, that's on him.

I'm not saying Timmain's way of leadership is a good one. I think it would never occur to any of the Wolfriders that Timmain could ever be wrong about anything.

manga wrote:

Looking at Timmain and Skywise's "No." "But--" "No." we're not looking at anything but an absolute monarch type approach.

That's still assuming that monarch-style leadership = bad leadership. "Monarch" is just a title - whether it's king, queen, emperor, tsar, or whatever - and there are good monarchs and bad monarchs, just like there are good presidents and bad presidents.

Lunakat wrote:

It's not completely bitchy or monarch-like. She just said no. She didn't say "no, you moron"-- or "stfu-no!" or even "Nay, peon!" She said no, and then Savah explained. My mom has said much worse to me. Skywise could have tried to argue it more, but he didn't. Or if he did, maybe we didn't see it. Maybe they hashed it out off camera... but if he bowed down to her, that's on him.

Agreed.
Besides; the look in Timmain's eyes the second time she says "No!" to me doesn't so much like like anger as fear.

Redhead Ember wrote:

Besides; the look in Timmain's eyes the second time she says "No!" to me doesn't so much like like anger as fear.

If so ... can this mean Haken is alive?

After getting his forearm torn off and being banished from the Palace, I think we can assume Haken hemorrhaged somewhere and died. If he did survive that, something else might have gotten him because he might not have had time, in his weakened state, to learn how to survive on Abode.

Unless he found/was found by another group of escapees from the Palace who had a healer among them.
If the rumour that Haken is Winnie's dad then he has to have had survived for at least some time.

Except it's a near certain thing that he's Winnowill's father.

So you guys are suggesting that maybe she said no to protect Skywise from what she suspects may be out there?

Is Haken nearly certainly Winnowil's dad? That's really too bad. I hate improbable, neat little wrap ups like that.

I was responding to Redhead's remark that Timmain looked rather fearful than angry.
The best reason why Timmain should fear another elf (or ohter elves) was Haken ... at least a reason the reader can know about. Half kidding ... half serious.

Haken was shown as a flesh-/boneshaper and has strengthend his magical abilities by linving in the Palace for an unknow amount of time. Considering this it is likely that he was able to mend his wound. Probably not regrowing his arm but stopping the bleeding in time.
Gibra left the group with her new born son Vol to find for Haken. Means that the Finrstcomers did NOT count him dead.

I guess his blackhaired appearance, the temper, his flesh shaping, maybe the infants name made fans come up with the idea that he and Gibra (and probably other elves) were the founders of Blue Mountain. And - there is the scene in SaBM when Winnowill seduces Rayek and shows his "High One appearance" - pretty close in look to Haken (or the other was round XD - SaBM was released before HY). It has fed fan imaginations that Winnowill has known / heard about Haken or is related to him even more.

IS Haken Winnowill's father or close ancestor? I have absolutely NO idea. You can see evidence in those bits and pieces - or coincidence. Wendy providing hints (or red herrings) - or the HY artist taking lazy inspiration. We will know at the end of FQ - or not.

"Rayek, let's have sex, you just look like my father" nonono, don't let Winnowill cross that line (and don't give me this s***t about elven sexuality!)!

I rather like the idea, that Winnie had ordinary parents, just like Rayek.

So an one-armed high-one, unfamiliar with surviving on his own (in an unfamiliar environment, mind you) is supposed to survive long after his banishment? And Gibra? She is maybe a bit more familiar with surviving on tWoTM, but that doesn't make her a better tracker (how long has Haken already left them by that time?).

But judging by usage of neat coincidences the writers are quite found of... :/

Yeah-- I agree, Miss G. Making Haken Winnowil's dad would put the whole Rayek affair in a disturbing, new light. Very freudian.

Personally, I don't see it. Winnowil looks nothing like Haken. And the Gliders were very clearly founded by Voll, not Haken or Gibra or any of the firstcomers. In the story Voll tells, it seems that he was of the first generation born on the planet-- and that was something unique about him. He knows about the Palace because his parents remembered it-- not because he ever saw it himself. And he laments that more and more generations of elves are forgetting the ways of the firstcomers. He takes it upon himself to lead them back to the old ways.

That means... that the founders of Blue Mountain were not firstcomers. They were Voll (first generation) and his followers, second and third (or more) generation elves who wanted to live like their ancestors.

I do think, though, that Embala has a point. If Haken could flesh-shape himself-- then he could survive having his arm ripped off. He would be able to stop the blood flow to the severed arm.. and possibly even grow himself something to replace it, eventually. So, while he might not be alive at this stage of the game, he probably didn't die from that confrontation either.

Knowing that Haken existed, and how dangerous he was... I can totally see Timmain hesitating to let Skywise go alone (or even with a few others) to pick up unknown elves. Who knows what he could encounter? That doesn't seem to occur to him... but it makes sense that it would occur to Timmain.

So maybe her "no" had a different motivation than what Savah articulated. She doesn't explain herself, and she doesn't send (which would instantly clear things up). It's possible she didn't want to fully explain.

Lunakat wrote:

That means... that the founders of Blue Mountain were not firstcomers. They were Voll (first generation) and his followers, second and third (or more) generation elves who wanted to live like their ancestors.

I totally agree.

Careless wording on my side. What I wanted to express is the vague possibility - and fan speculation! - that Haken and Gibra were part of the group the Gliders developed from ... with Voll (not Vol) founding BM.
And the sudden thought that Haken is a thread Timmain might remember - and fear.

Lunakat wrote:

Yeah-- I agree, Miss G. Making Haken Winnowil's dad would put the whole Rayek affair in a disturbing, new light. Very freudian.

Especially considering that fact that, if I'm not much mistaken, Winnie reshaped Rayek so he looked more like Haken during Rogue's Curse.

Lunakat wrote:

So maybe her "no" had a different motivation than what Savah articulated. She doesn't explain herself, and she doesn't send (which would instantly clear things up). It's possible she didn't want to fully explain.

Maybe what's out there is not a person but something worse! Some kind of unknown force, and Timmain can't send to explain what it is for the same Cutter couldn't/wouldn't send what it was like to lose the Now of Wolf Though; the result would simply be too horrible.

On a completely different topic, I only just now twigged on a detail I missed before. Ember referred to herself as Sunstream's "little sister" in this issue. Does that mean Sunstream was born first? I always thought Ember was the older twin.

Multi-Facets wrote:

On a completely different topic, I only just now twigged on a detail I missed before. Ember referred to herself as Sunstream's "little sister" in this issue. Does that mean Sunstream was born first? I always thought Ember was the older twin.

I guess so!

Our favorite Redhead! wrote:

Maybe what's out there is not a person but something worse! Some kind of unknown force, and Timmain can't send to explain what it is for the same Cutter couldn't/wouldn't send what it was like to lose the Now of Wolf Though; the result would simply be too horrible.

Before Cutter gets his terrible revelation... there is supposed to be a party and a gathering. So probably nothing bad has shown up out of the blue at that point (or they wouldn't be celebrating, right?)... Maybe the issue is that, once the elves gather, something upsetting is going to happen. Maybe she wanted to stall on that? You know... give them a good ten years to get ready for it, or at least enjoy their time.