The EQ Alternaverse ((PART 1))

Thanks for the compliments on the dolls, guys!

Zadzi is correct. Oasis is within the World's Spine mountains in the Old Land, not too far from the original Sorrow's End. Savin is an Islander from Green Moon Bay at the southern tip of the New Land.

Also correct that she wouldn't think negatively of Skywise working with Haken on a colonizing mission - none of the Palacedwellers are "aligning" with Haken, so to speak. It's an opportunity to explore beyond the confines of Abode, which Skywise is always keen on, so she's down with that.

I never thought of Skywise as the amoral scientist type-- but I guess I can see it

I'd say more like a real estate agent, considering he's helping Haken to move far, far away.

Anyway, most of them seem to deal with him in an official capacity, like Weatherbird and even Swift, and seem to have no problems with him.

It's still kind of amoral if not immoral by most standards. Haken was functioning like an oppressive dictator. He even had secret police threatening citizens with violence for speaking their minds and assembling together. I mean... When that happens on earth, we call it fascism. It's nice that he chose to take criticism as an opportunity to run away and settle elsewhere-- colonize elsewhere-- but that doesn't make what he did to people nice. Causing people to live in fear of your disapproval is not cool. That Skywise so cheerfully supports him simply because he is going to space, and Skywise is effectively a scientist type who wants to go to space... well, that's opportunistic and amoral on his part. It's basically wanting the business so bad, you don't care who you do business with. Like... needing body parts for research, so you don't question how they were obtained... Or, say, wanting to install an oil pipeline in a country like Burma, so you don't question how that government treats its people as long as you get the access. I actually could see Skywise choosing to turn a blind eye-- because he is such a space enthusiast. But would Savin? If she knew? Do they not know? How would they react if they found out? Does he know and she not know? Do none of the other elves know how the citizens of Oasis were treated by their glorious leader? Did Leeath know and just not mention it? Would Rayek be cool with it? Would Swift? I just find it curious.

You'll be finding out soon enough, Lunakat. The next fic in the lineup is a little filler piece catching up with everyone now at the College, and then it's off to Homestead - and Skywise, Savin, Swift and Rayek will be along for the ride!

And let's not forget: from the point of view of Haken's supporters, Arshel and Leetah and Maleen (before she jumped ship) were dangerous political dissidents who were holding secret anti-government meetings, and then marched on City Hall threatening economic blackmail until their demands (which included a complete rewrite of the constitution and political exile for their enemies) were met.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Can't wait! Your stories are so good!

Wingthing wrote:

And let's not forget: from the point of view of Haken's supporters, Arshel and Leetah and Maleen (before she jumped ship) were dangerous political dissidents who were holding secret anti-government meetings, and then marched on City Hall threatening economic blackmail until their demands (which included a complete rewrite of the constitution and political exile for their enemies) were met.

Of course! That is the standard perspective of a fascist government. Governments that allow for free speech don't consider their own citizens to be "dangerous political dissidents" simply for protesting and organizing for economic changes.

Haken didn't ask Melati to make the Peace Hounds, he didn't set up the Snakes, and it wasn't his disapproval Arshel and co. were living in fear of. The biggest fascist in Oasis is Carrun. Haken didn't stop her and the Snakes from abusing their positions of power because 1) he's actually a pretty hands-off leader, and 2) he has this Nietzschean philosophy where if the weak get pushed around and told what to do by the strong and they don't like it, then they should stop being so weak. And then when the weak got strong and pushed back, he let them have what they wanted. I mean, he wasn't nice to the dissidents, he's totally giving them the middle finger and taking all his cool toys to Homestead with him, but it's not up there with elfin rights violations. Haken really hasn't done anything so unconscionable that other elfin nations would feel the need to boycott him. Sorry if you disagree.

He's pretty awful-- they all are. I mean -- any leader of a complex society that lets the weak get pushed around because they are weak and doesn't care if someone just below him in rank begins using what is basically a police force to repress dissent through violent means or the threat of violence is not a good leader. And is basically condoning by virtue of turning a blind eye or simply not caring enough to intervene. I mean-- yeah.

Okay, sorry you feel that way.

I'm not saying Haken is a great leader. He's a great orator, not a great leader. Oasis is a society in crisis, that's why it's fracturing. But it's not the only such society, and it's not the business of the other nations to pass judgment. Nobody's been getting up in the business of the strong pushing around the weak at the Evertree when they bullied senior citizens into suicide by stag and stole babies from their birth-mothers.

Well, Luna, it's a good thing you aren't going to Homestead with Haken, then.

I assume you are also opposed to the Wolfriders (both canon and Alt) historically dealing with dissent through the threat of violence and the dictatorship of assorted chiefs, plus the whole "legal" aspect of "the challenge" that means the strongest in mind and body can effectively engineer a bloody coup d'état at any time just by virtue of a strong right hook? And this is defended by all concerned as a completely fair and valid method of rule.

Different dictators for different folks!

I don't get it. Like there's a competition? You created a character and a society with a governing body that seems fundamentally oppressive to me. I thought it was deliberate. I mean.. it's really overt. You have a police force that punishes political dissidents-- citizens having to gather in secret in their own homes-- and having their homes broken into by what are essentially the police .. the thought police no less... and then taken into custody for speaking their minds. And you just said your leader doesn't care. I mean-- how else could anyone interpret that? And it's not a tribal society. it's a complex society with agriculture and divisions of labor. I don't know why I would want to go to Homestead with someone like Haken. I also don't know how comparing Oasis to the Wolfrider culture would make either any less what it is. I mean-- yeah-- the Wolfriders are tribal and they seem to settle things through challenge and force. But so what? That doesn't mean that Oasis is any less repressive. I mean... an orange is a citrus and an apple is crunchy. The fact that an apple is crunchy doesn't refute the statement that an orange is a citrus. So the Wolfriders aren't perfect. Especially in your world. And Oasis still has all the trappings of a dictatorship and Haken still seems like a bad leader. All things existing simultaneously in the story. None of these things are appealing... except apples and oranges. I find them both delicious.

I think that's the point, Luna. None of the societies are utopias. No one is exclusively, capitol R "Right."

manga wrote:

I think that's the point, Luna. None of the societies are utopias. No one is exclusively, capitol R "Right."

Well, yeah. I just said that too. But also-- I never said they were. That wasn't my point. I don't think I even implied it.

It seemed implied to me by your questions about other societies reactions to Haken and Oasis. It implied to me that you thought they had a right to judge Haken's leadership.

It's not a competition. My point was that many elfin societies have dark moral shades, but the only one that seems to give you a problem or that you think other elves should have a problem with is Haken's. If Oasis has a fascist tone to it right now, that's entirely deliberate on Wingthing's part. We've heard your problems with that. Maybe we could move on now.

Lunakat wrote:

I don't get it. Like there's a competition? You created a character and a society with a governing body that seems fundamentally oppressive to me. I thought it was deliberate. I mean.. it's really overt. You have a police force that punishes political dissidents-- citizens having to gather in secret in their own homes-- and having their homes broken into by what are essentially the police .. the thought police no less... and then taken into custody for speaking their minds. And you just said your leader doesn't care. I mean-- how else could anyone interpret that?

Sure, from an outsider/reader perspective, it's 1984 With Magic! But you were asking how other characters in the 'verse react to it, and why they aren't all wholly condemning Haken and his faction. And what I've been showing throughout Final Quest is that it's all a matter of perspective.

If Rayek asked Leetah about what's happened, he'd hear "Haken is a tyrant with mutant guard dogs and thought police!"

If he asked Cholla about it, he'd hear "Leetah and Arshel are professional malcontents who are determined to disturb the peace and slander Melati. And what's wrong with peace hounds? They Keep the Peace. it's in their name!"

If Swift asked Grayling, she'd hear "Both sides are acting like spoiled children!" and if she asked Ekuar, she'd hear "Well, things have gotten awkward the last century or so, but I have faith they'll all settle down soon enough."

Should the perspectives of those who agree with Haken, (or at least don't blame him for the shitstorm Mel and Carrun set off) be immediately dismissed as amoral or immoral? Surely if you agree there is no capital R right, then blanket condemnation of Haken cannot be "right" either.

You're perfectly welcome to hate Haken's guts and consider him a dictator. But most of the non-Oasis elves don't. Hell, the majority of the Oasis elves don't either! A bit of an ineffective leader, perhaps. An absentminded "father to his people" who let his kids gets away with some questionable choices, sure. But considering he's been doing this for ten thousand years and it's only the last while that things went sour, the silent majority is willing to cut him some slack.

That's not to say Haken's getting off easy. His "might makes right" philosophy will be taking a real hit once they reach Homestead... but that's a spoiler for another day...

Okay-- so there are conflicting reports and the other elves just don't know what's really happening. Got it.

At some point, I hope sending clears that up! Looking forward to seeing what happens next.

Wingthing...

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I too always just saw it as nothing's perfect with these so called utopian societies. Even the whole thing with the Evertree talks about a possibly darker force at work - the 'price' of utopia.

*sits on the sidelines and waves a Haken/Oasis/Redsnakes flag* ^^0|>...

...anyways i think my favorite part of that was when Wingthing detailed characters responses to a hypothetical question! always love that little insight to their personalities.

....also now i have the urge to draw Vaeri as a Red Snake....because i can and that counts as fan art and i'm a fan AND I CAN!

The Evertree, though, seems like bad magic vs a societal structure.

sun girl wrote:

Wingthing...

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Subtle.

Not really, a societal structure was literally based inside it - a whole mythology and a group of elves were firmly attached to its presence (I mean before it went bonkers) as well to it as an idea, and it was almost like a religion, their church. The dead souls went there. Now their whole world has been upended and pretty much demolished because of this bad magic which only sees itself as 'right' as well as the only 'way'. Much like other concepts/societal structures within the story as well.


I dunno. I never hated Haken. If I did, I would've stopped reading a long time ago. With Weatherbird and even Venka and Chani (at times) keeping him in check, I never saw him as some evil mustache-twirling type. A tyrant to an extent and also very proud but I never saw him as being unable to see reason. All the other stuff really had to do with Melati - and more like her followers that were being out of control. A lot of dysfunction exists in Oasis but I think a lot of it has to do with how easy their lives have gotten. They don't have to work for ANYTHING anymore... not food/hunting, not shelter, not recognition, and they can change 'shells' as they please...seriously doesn't surprise me when things like this happen. But it is interesting to read.

Lunakat wrote:

sun girl wrote:

Wingthing...

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Subtle.

Wasn't meant to be subtle.