Final Quest #22

Cutter, Leetah and Rayek have character development, the other elves stayed more or less the same over all the issues, including Skywise. Even though people change and we are familiar with the concept, we don't expect the elves to change, simply because they never do. Nightfall is the same person as in OQ, so is Treestump, so is Savah. Admittedly, there was something like a built-up with Moonshade, her separation with Strongbow was dragged out to death (readers weren't engaged, they were annoyed), but it still feels half-backed.

Speaking of Strongbow, he never ever had anything close to a story line, like most elves, his character is a couple of bullet points (traditionalist, no nonsense, grumpy). There was never a transition from the guy whosuggested, that Cutter might just take Leetah and not bother with her wishes. He never apologised for disparaging other cultures. That's why some people don't like him.
Other like him as the guy, who keeps his values and is in this deep loving, committed relationship with his wife. The cool, straightforward man. And just like I stroke Mender's tale from my head canon, Strongbow fans ignore the "just take her" line.

Wendy thought up the completely unusable "arrow whip", of course she has no idea of the development of firearms.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Wendy thought up the completely unusable "arrow whip", of course she has no idea of the development of firearms.

Wait... what? The oversized "Rubber Band Launcher" wouldnt work IRL? /sarcasm

Yeah, Wendy obviously has no memories of grade school. I was confiscating "arrow-whips" all last week! Some just as poorly made as Dart's.

Some of us in the Strongbow camp have managed to love other characters with much worse missteps to their name than one line from back in the OQ that has never been repeated.

Speaking as a more socially conservative type of woman myself, I don't think the story of a conservative woman's "awakening" is actually that interesting. I tend to find it over done in fact. I would be much more interested personally and just in general in the story of an out there hippie type who found themselves coming around to the other point of view.

But I guess in both cases it depends on who is doing the writing and why and how much they feel compelled to demonize the other Camp. I don't like it from either direction.

manga wrote:

But I guess in both cases it depends on who is doing the writing and why and how much they feel compelled to demonize the other Camp. I don't like it from either direction.

One of the more interesting dynamics of the Moonshade/Strongbow storyline is that the reader is predisposed to prefer the Wolfrider Way, i.e. the stand-in for conservatism. That's the lifestyle we've seen the most, projected ourselves into, loved for decades etc. Now, I don't think Wendy meant for the hippie-Palace lifestyle to seem so terribly unappealing. But an interesting side-effect is that neither the Way nor life in the Palace are demonized in the story, and that at least is refreshing.

As for Strongbow's unfortunate line from Fire and Flight, I honestly consider half the stuff in that story only borderline canon. Wendy and Richard were obviously still feeling out the tone and rules of the world they were creating. The whole trial ceremony seems weirdly out-of-step with elf culture, even Sun Folk culture. The vibe of the whole thing is a bit too patriarchal. Same with Strongbow's comment. He wasn't expressing a Wolfrider sentiment or even his own value-system as we eventually come to understand it. I can believe he'd insist that recognition is recognition, whether Leetah's happy about it or not. I don't believe his character would take it further and actually condone forcible rape. So yeah, I literally ignore that line, in a way I never would if Strongbow were a real person and not a fictional character in a story that evolved over the course of decades. Strongbow has both positive and negative traits as a character, but I see no evidence that any Wendy-written elf character is intended to be positively disposed to rape, which makes that random line a misstep on the part of the storytellers. Just my two cents.

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Cutter, Leetah and Rayek have character development, the other elves stayed more or less the same over all the issues, including Skywise. Even though people change and we are familiar with the concept, we don't expect the elves to change, simply because they never do. Nightfall is the same person as in OQ, so is Treestump, so is Savah.

I don't actually have a problem with this because, again, these are fictional characters. It's pretty common for the central protagonists/antagonists of a story to have more development than the supporting cast of characters. But when static characters encounter new situations, they should react in predictable ways. In this regard, I find Strongbow's behavior in FQ pretty consistent with his established character. I would argue that Moonshade behaves inconsistently with her prior characterization, however, and that's part of why their drama rings hollow to me.

Wisp wrote:

 Strongbow has both positive and negative traits as a character, but I see no evidence that any Wendy-written elf character is intended to be positively disposed to rape, which makes that random line a misstep on the part of the storytellers.  Just my two cents.      

ɪ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪᴛ's ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀɴᴏɴɪᴄᴀʟ, ʙᴜᴛ ɪ'ᴠᴇ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ʙᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴏɴᴇ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏғ ʙᴇᴀᴜᴛʏ, ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ɪᴛ ᴡᴀs, ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ "ᴘɪʟʟᴏᴡʙᴏᴏᴋ." ᴀʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴇsᴛ ᴡᴀs ʜɪɢʜʟʏ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴡᴇ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ʙɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ ʙᴇᴀʀᴄʟᴀᴡ ᴀɴᴅ sᴛʀᴏɴɢʙᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴜɴʟᴇss ɪ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀʟʟʏ ᴡʀᴏɴɢ ᴀs ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ʙᴇɪɴɢ ɪɴsɪɴᴜᴀᴛᴇᴅ... ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪs ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴘᴏssɪʙʟᴇ.

Kojiyumi wrote:

Wisp wrote:

 Strongbow has both positive and negative traits as a character, but I see no evidence that any Wendy-written elf character is intended to be positively disposed to rape, which makes that random line a misstep on the part of the storytellers.  Just my two cents.       

ɪ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪᴛ's ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀɴᴏɴɪᴄᴀʟ, ʙᴜᴛ ɪ'ᴠᴇ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ʙᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴏɴᴇ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏғ ʙᴇᴀᴜᴛʏ, ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ɪᴛ ᴡᴀs, ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ "ᴘɪʟʟᴏᴡʙᴏᴏᴋ."  ᴀʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴇsᴛ ᴡᴀs ʜɪɢʜʟʏ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴡᴇ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ʙɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ ʙᴇᴀʀᴄʟᴀᴡ ᴀɴᴅ sᴛʀᴏɴɢʙᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴜɴʟᴇss ɪ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀʟʟʏ ᴡʀᴏɴɢ ᴀs ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ʙᴇɪɴɢ ɪɴsɪɴᴜᴀᴛᴇᴅ...  ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪs ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴘᴏssɪʙʟᴇ.

I would like to know more?

Kojiyumi wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Kojiyumi wrote:

Wisp wrote:

 Strongbow has both positive and negative traits as a character, but I see no evidence that any Wendy-written elf character is intended to be positively disposed to rape, which makes that random line a misstep on the part of the storytellers.  Just my two cents.       

ɪ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪᴛ's ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀɴᴏɴɪᴄᴀʟ, ʙᴜᴛ ɪ'ᴠᴇ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ʙᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴏɴᴇ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏғ ʙᴇᴀᴜᴛʏ, ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ɪᴛ ᴡᴀs, ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ "ᴘɪʟʟᴏᴡʙᴏᴏᴋ."  ᴀʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴇsᴛ ᴡᴀs ʜɪɢʜʟʏ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴡᴇ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ʙɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ ʙᴇᴀʀᴄʟᴀᴡ ᴀɴᴅ sᴛʀᴏɴɢʙᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴜɴʟᴇss ɪ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀʟʟʏ ᴡʀᴏɴɢ ᴀs ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ʙᴇɪɴɢ ɪɴsɪɴᴜᴀᴛᴇᴅ...  ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪs ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴘᴏssɪʙʟᴇ.

I would like to know more?

Spoiler:

Oh.

Well. That's explains where he got the 'should just take her' comment from.
Edit: Also thank you!

Ugh, just looking back at a few pages again. Sunstream and Brill have a pretty terrible relationship, honestly. I don't think they're depicted as any healthier than Moonshade and Strongbow. In this issue alone, we see Sunstream guilting Brill for not making up her mind. She calls herself "weak" and indecisive, although she's actually pretty clear about what she "craves," namely the "comforts of home and tribe". Her entire remaining tribe, including her daughter and twin, eventually decide to stay on the WoTM, but Korafay insists she knows what Brill wants better than Brill herself. Next thing you know, Brill's in the palace, still acting unsure of herself ("Did I do wrong?") Own your decisions, lady! As it stands, it looks like she was bullied into going by her daughter and lifemate. Plus we never got to see her say goodbye to her daughter, sister, and best friends. Like, couldn't we have skipped the elf-worship cult for a couple panels of that?

Kojiyumi wrote:

ɪ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪᴛ's ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀɴᴏɴɪᴄᴀʟ, ʙᴜᴛ ɪ'ᴠᴇ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ʙᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴏɴᴇ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏғ ʙᴇᴀᴜᴛʏ, ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ɪᴛ ᴡᴀs, ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ "ᴘɪʟʟᴏᴡʙᴏᴏᴋ." ᴀʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴇsᴛ ᴡᴀs ʜɪɢʜʟʏ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴡᴇ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ʙɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ ʙᴇᴀʀᴄʟᴀᴡ ᴀɴᴅ sᴛʀᴏɴɢʙᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴜɴʟᴇss ɪ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀʟʟʏ ᴡʀᴏɴɢ ᴀs ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ʙᴇɪɴɢ ɪɴsɪɴᴜᴀᴛᴇᴅ... ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪs ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴘᴏssɪʙʟᴇ.

I don't have the line of beauty book.  Was that page with Strongbow and Bearclaw included in a part that was about sex or something?  I remember those panels, but I didn't read it sexually, more as Bearclaw physically holding Strongbow down on the ground on his back, the same position a wolf or dog puts a rival into to establish dominance. This is what a wolf behavior website has to say:

Quote :

Wolves often spar, especially while they are pups and yearlings to establish place in the pack hierarchy. One of the most detrimental occurrences for a Wolf during a fight is to get brought down and pinned. During ritualistic combat this usually loses the match and proves the standing Wolf as dominant, but in deadly combat it can expose vital areas of the body, like the throat, leaving it prone to a killing bite.

(from runningwiththewolves.org)

But maybe I'm not getting the context that was presented in book?

wingthing wrote:

Miss Gillespie wrote:

Wendy thought up the completely unusable "arrow whip", of course she has no idea of the development of firearms.

Wait... what? The oversized "Rubber Band Launcher" wouldnt work IRL? /sarcasm

Yeah, Wendy obviously has no memories of grade school. I was confiscating "arrow-whips" all last week! Some just as poorly made as Dart's.

ᴀs sᴏᴍᴇᴏɴᴇ ᴡʜᴏ's ᴅᴏɴᴇ ᴀʀᴄʜᴇʀʏ, ɪ ᴏғᴛᴇɴ ᴘᴜʟʟ ʜᴀɪʀ ᴏᴜᴛ ᴀᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴍᴘʀᴏʙᴀʙʟʏ sʜᴏʀᴛ ʟᴇɴɢᴛʜ sʜᴇ sᴏᴍᴇᴛɪᴍᴇs ᴅʀᴀᴡs ᴀʀʀᴏᴡs.  ɪ ᴅᴏɴ'ᴛ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴀɴʏᴏɴᴇ ᴇʟsᴇ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴍʏ ᴀʀʀᴏᴡs ᴀʀᴇ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ʟᴇɴɢᴛʜ ᴏғ ᴍʏ ᴇxᴛᴇɴᴅᴇᴅ ᴀʀᴍ.  ɪ ᴊᴜsᴛ ᴄʜᴀʟᴋ ɪᴛ ᴜᴘ ᴛᴏ ᴄᴀʀᴛᴏᴏɴ ᴘʜʏsɪᴄs ᴀɴᴅ ᴀʀᴛɪsᴛɪᴄ ʟɪᴄᴇɴsᴇ.

 ɪғ ʏᴏᴜ'ʀᴇ ɢᴏɴɴᴀ ʀᴜʙʙᴇʀʙᴀɴᴅ ɢᴜɴ...

Wisp wrote:

Kojiyumi wrote:

ɪ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪᴛ's ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀɴᴏɴɪᴄᴀʟ, ʙᴜᴛ ɪ'ᴠᴇ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ʙᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴏɴᴇ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏғ ʙᴇᴀᴜᴛʏ, ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ɪᴛ ᴡᴀs, ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ "ᴘɪʟʟᴏᴡʙᴏᴏᴋ." ᴀʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴇsᴛ ᴡᴀs ʜɪɢʜʟʏ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴡᴇ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ʙɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ ʙᴇᴀʀᴄʟᴀᴡ ᴀɴᴅ sᴛʀᴏɴɢʙᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴜɴʟᴇss ɪ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀʟʟʏ ᴡʀᴏɴɢ ᴀs ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ʙᴇɪɴɢ ɪɴsɪɴᴜᴀᴛᴇᴅ... ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪs ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴘᴏssɪʙʟᴇ.

I don't have the line of beauty book.  Was that page with Strongbow and Bearclaw included in a part that was about sex or something?  I remember those panels, but I didn't read it sexually, more as Bearclaw physically holding Strongbow down on the ground on his back, the same position a wolf or dog puts a rival into to establish dominance. But maybe I'm not getting the context that was presented in book?

ᴛʜᴀᴛ ɪs ᴡʜʏ ɪ sᴀʏ ɪ ᴄᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴍɪsʀᴇᴀᴅɪɴɢ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟs ᴡɪᴛʜɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ sᴀᴍᴇ sᴘʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴡᴇʀᴇ ɪɴ ᴀ sᴇxᴜᴀʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀs ᴡᴇʀᴇ ʀᴀᴛʜᴇʀ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ sɪᴅᴇ (ɪɴᴄʟᴜᴅɪɴɢ ᴍᴇɴᴅᴇʀ ɪɴᴛʀᴏᴅᴜᴄɪɴɢ ᴅᴀʀᴛ ᴛᴏ ʜᴏᴡ ᴍᴀʟᴇs ᴊᴏɪɴ ᴀɴᴅ sᴋʏᴡɪsᴇ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴅᴏᴡɴ ᴏɴ ᴄᴜᴛᴛᴇʀ... ᴀɴᴅ ᴍᴇɴᴅᴇʀ ᴀɴᴅ ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ғʟᴀᴍ sᴘᴏʀᴛɪɴɢ ᴛᴏɢᴇᴛʜᴇʀ.) ʜᴀᴅ ɪᴛ ɴᴏᴛ ʙᴇᴇɴ ɪɴᴄʟᴜᴅᴇᴅ ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴀᴛ, ᴀs ᴡᴇʟʟ ᴀs ᴀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ ʙᴇʟᴏᴡ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴅᴇᴄɪᴅɪɴɢ ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀsᴇʟғ ᴅɪᴅ ᴛʜᴇʏ ᴏʀ ᴅɪᴅɴ'ᴛ ᴛʜᴇʏ? ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ɪᴛ ᴀ ᴅɪғғᴇʀᴇɴᴛ ᴡᴀʏ. ɪᴛ ᴊᴜsᴛ sᴇᴇᴍᴇᴅ ᴀ ᴠᴇʀʏ ᴊᴀʀʀɪɴɢ ɪɴᴄʟᴜsɪᴏɴ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ.

Kojiyumi wrote:

Wisp wrote:

Kojiyumi wrote:

ɪ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪᴛ's ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀɴᴏɴɪᴄᴀʟ, ʙᴜᴛ ɪ'ᴠᴇ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ʙᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴏɴᴇ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏғ ʙᴇᴀᴜᴛʏ, ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ɪᴛ ᴡᴀs, ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ "ᴘɪʟʟᴏᴡʙᴏᴏᴋ." ᴀʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴇsᴛ ᴡᴀs ʜɪɢʜʟʏ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴡᴇ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ʙɪᴛ ᴡɪᴛʜ ʙᴇᴀʀᴄʟᴀᴡ ᴀɴᴅ sᴛʀᴏɴɢʙᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴜɴʟᴇss ɪ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀʟʟʏ ᴡʀᴏɴɢ ᴀs ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ʙᴇɪɴɢ ɪɴsɪɴᴜᴀᴛᴇᴅ... ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪs ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴘᴏssɪʙʟᴇ.

I don't have the line of beauty book.  Was that page with Strongbow and Bearclaw included in a part that was about sex or something?  I remember those panels, but I didn't read it sexually, more as Bearclaw physically holding Strongbow down on the ground on his back, the same position a wolf or dog puts a rival into to establish dominance. But maybe I'm not getting the context that was presented in book?

ᴛʜᴀᴛ ɪs ᴡʜʏ ɪ sᴀʏ ɪ ᴄᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴍɪsʀᴇᴀᴅɪɴɢ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟs ᴡɪᴛʜɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ sᴀᴍᴇ sᴘʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴡᴇʀᴇ ɪɴ ᴀ sᴇxᴜᴀʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀs ᴡᴇʀᴇ ʀᴀᴛʜᴇʀ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ sɪᴅᴇ (ɪɴᴄʟᴜᴅɪɴɢ ᴍᴇɴᴅᴇʀ ɪɴᴛʀᴏᴅᴜᴄɪɴɢ ᴅᴀʀᴛ ᴛᴏ ʜᴏᴡ ᴍᴀʟᴇs ᴊᴏɪɴ ᴀɴᴅ sᴋʏᴡɪsᴇ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴅᴏᴡɴ ᴏɴ ᴄᴜᴛᴛᴇʀ... ᴀɴᴅ ᴍᴇɴᴅᴇʀ ᴀɴᴅ ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ғʟᴀᴍ sᴘᴏʀᴛɪɴɢ ᴛᴏɢᴇᴛʜᴇʀ.)  ʜᴀᴅ ɪᴛ ɴᴏᴛ ʙᴇᴇɴ ɪɴᴄʟᴜᴅᴇᴅ ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴀᴛ, ᴀs ᴡᴇʟʟ ᴀs ᴀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ ʙᴇʟᴏᴡ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴅᴇᴄɪᴅɪɴɢ ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀsᴇʟғ ᴅɪᴅ ᴛʜᴇʏ ᴏʀ ᴅɪᴅɴ'ᴛ ᴛʜᴇʏ? ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ɪᴛ ᴀ ᴅɪғғᴇʀᴇɴᴛ ᴡᴀʏ.  ɪᴛ ᴊᴜsᴛ sᴇᴇᴍᴇᴅ ᴀ ᴠᴇʀʏ ᴊᴀʀʀɪɴɢ ɪɴᴄʟᴜsɪᴏɴ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ.

Change Strongbow into a woman in those panels and everybody is going to see it as sexual assault and Bearclaw as a rapey bastard.

Shadowpath wrote:

Change Strongbow into a woman in those panels and everybody is going to see it as sexual assault and Bearclaw as a rapey bastard.

Don't even need to change the genders, honestly. Yikes.

Guess we can add lupine behavior to the list of things Wendy doesn't actually know much about.

manga wrote:

Some of us in the Strongbow camp have managed to love other characters with much worse missteps to their name than one line from back in the OQ that has never been repeated.

This!

Wisp wrote:

As for Strongbow's unfortunate line from Fire and Flight, I honestly consider half the stuff in that story only borderline canon. Wendy and Richard were obviously still feeling out the tone and rules of the world they were creating. The whole trial ceremony seems weirdly out-of-step with elf culture, even Sun Folk culture. The vibe of the whole thing is a bit too patriarchal. Same with Strongbow's comment. He wasn't expressing a Wolfrider sentiment or even his own value-system as we eventually come to understand it. I can believe he'd insist that recognition is recognition, whether Leetah's happy about it or not. I don't believe his character would take it further and actually condone forcible rape. So yeah, I literally ignore that line, in a way I never would if Strongbow were a real person and not a fictional character in a story that evolved over the course of decades. Strongbow has both positive and negative traits as a character, but I see no evidence that any Wendy-written elf character is intended to be positively disposed to rape, which makes that random line a misstep on the part of the storytellers. Just my two cents.

... and that.

Wisp wrote:

Shadowpath wrote:

Change Strongbow into a woman in those panels and everybody is going to see it as sexual assault and Bearclaw as a rapey bastard.

Don't even need to change the genders, honestly.  Yikes.

Guess we can add lupine behavior to the list of things Wendy doesn't actually know much about.

You don't, no.

Somebody's mentioned before that Wendy's knowledge comes from captive wolves and is rather outdated, so yeah, we can.

Kojiyumi wrote:

ᴛʜᴀᴛ ɪs ᴡʜʏ ɪ sᴀʏ ɪ ᴄᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴍɪsʀᴇᴀᴅɪɴɢ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ᴘᴀɴᴇʟs ᴡɪᴛʜɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ sᴀᴍᴇ sᴘʀᴇᴀᴅ ᴡᴇʀᴇ ɪɴ ᴀ sᴇxᴜᴀʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀs ᴡᴇʀᴇ ʀᴀᴛʜᴇʀ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ sᴇɴsᴜᴀʟ sɪᴅᴇ (ɪɴᴄʟᴜᴅɪɴɢ ᴍᴇɴᴅᴇʀ ɪɴᴛʀᴏᴅᴜᴄɪɴɢ ᴅᴀʀᴛ ᴛᴏ ʜᴏᴡ ᴍᴀʟᴇs ᴊᴏɪɴ ᴀɴᴅ sᴋʏᴡɪsᴇ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴅᴏᴡɴ ᴏɴ ᴄᴜᴛᴛᴇʀ... ᴀɴᴅ ᴍᴇɴᴅᴇʀ ᴀɴᴅ ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ғʟᴀᴍ sᴘᴏʀᴛɪɴɢ ᴛᴏɢᴇᴛʜᴇʀ.)  ʜᴀᴅ ɪᴛ ɴᴏᴛ ʙᴇᴇɴ ɪɴᴄʟᴜᴅᴇᴅ ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴀᴛ, ᴀs ᴡᴇʟʟ ᴀs ᴀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ ʙᴇʟᴏᴡ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴅᴇᴄɪᴅɪɴɢ ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀsᴇʟғ ᴅɪᴅ ᴛʜᴇʏ ᴏʀ ᴅɪᴅɴ'ᴛ ᴛʜᴇʏ? ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ɪᴛ ᴀ ᴅɪғғᴇʀᴇɴᴛ ᴡᴀʏ.  ɪᴛ ᴊᴜsᴛ sᴇᴇᴍᴇᴅ ᴀ ᴠᴇʀʏ ᴊᴀʀʀɪɴɢ ɪɴᴄʟᴜsɪᴏɴ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ.

Lol, what? So what... Dart was in chaste relationships with Shushen and Talmah? Pfft. Pull the other one, Wendy. (I'd say I'm curious, but after Masque, I'm really, really not.)

Shadowpath wrote:

Change Strongbow into a woman in those panels and everybody is going to see it as sexual assault and Bearclaw as a rapey bastard.

Doesn't help that another common way for canines to show dominance is mounting... (Yes, that is a joke. I do know there's no actual coupling involved in that.)

So far as the rape/non-con goes in EQ, it hasn't cropped up too often, but when it does it's rather disturbing apart from the act itself. There's a tendency for anything short of violent rape to be glossed over by the narrative. But that might be a topic for another thread. We're wandering away from the actual content of FQ #22.

I've looked over the issue again. I think Moonshade DID choose to shield Strongbow. It's vague and hard to see but when Moonshade's amourphous form appears, she is behind Strongbow, facing the same direction as him. You can see the shape of her face and neck. Then in the next panel her back is to us and there are "swoosh" marks indicating a rapid change of direction.

[Small]Still doesn't change the fact that lead balls don't go through spines and breastbones like that.[/small]

I wonder what her speed as a spirit is in general? I mean, why not phase in and divert the hand of the war-man instead so he misfires, then blink back out.

Well. Got my copy tonight....

[sigh] It felt rushed, but also terribly final. There's only two more issues to go, and if even the Scroll of Colors can't predict if the Palace can safely come back, well.... it got me.

It looks as though Leetah's figured out the Cutter/Timmain thing. Good for her for accepting it. It was good to see Satreeka be born safe and happy, and to see Venka be so thrilled at becoming a mom. What she said afterward, and Moonshade's thought on it, really drove home just how tired Moonshade is of struggle and pain. I can relate.

I hope Brill won't regret her decision; I understand her uncertainty. Ember and Sunstream made me think of my own twin. I'm still connected to her (even though I don't think I wanna be), but the thought of losing her forever- just- argh. Not a good thought.

Cutter and Rayek had such a touching moment. I think they truly met as equals.

Wendy does still have some of her old artistic ability. I saw more expressive faces. Leetah's mix of emotions at becoming the new Mother of Memory, Cutter's smirk at Petalwing, Old Maggoty nagging an amused Shenshen. Brill likely remembering Korafay's birth when Satreeka was born. The horror created by death.

And on the day of departure, I think it really did hit Moonshade then that saying goodbye could well be forever; she may never come home ever again, hence rushing to Strongbow. And if she really did choose to take the bullet for him, then....

I'm sorry, I need a minute.

Strongbow likely realized he wasn't getting away alive. Moonshade saw it too, and she faced danger and death like the Wolfrider she is, like her old self did time and time again. And like another forum member said, she looked more like herself than she had in ages. The square face, the muscle tone in her limbs. And it was so brave of Strongbow to give her body to Timmain instead of giving it to the wolves to consume. Maybe it can become part of the Palace somehow, so at least that part of her can fly forever.

But "never to touch again".... f--k me. This was exactly what I was saying. Even if Strongbow had been the one to die, and his spirit went to the Palace to be with Moonshade forever, they could never truly be together.

One last touch. Moonshade just barely got what she wanted in several ways. And I'm really going to miss her.

Here is what I don't understand. These men. They were deserters. They left the Djun's forces.

Why were they so damn trigger happy in the first place. Shouldn't they just. i don't know. Run the opposite direction once they discovered Strongbow?

Startear wrote:

Here is what I don't understand. These men. They were deserters. They left the Djun's forces.

Why were they so damn trigger happy in the first place. Shouldn't they just. i don't know. Run the opposite direction once they discovered Strongbow?

Inherently evil humans are inherently evil and always down to murder anything.

I mean, I know that's a horrible thing to say? But Abode humans? There's little good in them or anything redeemable about them.

Startear wrote:

Here is what I don't understand. These men. They were deserters. They left the Djun's forces.

Why were they so damn trigger happy in the first place. Shouldn't they just. i don't know. Run the opposite direction once they discovered Strongbow?

Deserters maybe yes, but still filled with horror tales about demons.
Not un-alike today's population on earth. Mighty people cling to their power by installing fear into people. Fear makes the easier to command. People in the middle ages (comparable to the ones on the world of Two Moons) had little to no education, reasonable journalism or anything else to brighten their minds. So they are an even easier target for spooky tales.

By the way, remember the calendar's deadline.

Well' I get that. But I still think it would be more likely that they'd run, not surround him.

as for the Calendar... I'm on it! Waiting for a reply to the PM so I can send the submission in! =)

Kojiyumi wrote:

Spoiler:

Interesting. Darn, I have crowdfunded these books but did not even have the time yet to read them. XP
Anyway, that scene might imply possible happenings. Quite rough. And it could explain a few things.
Thanks for the heads-up.

(somtimes it feels a little like Tolkien's works, you read stuff and more stuff, and then you discover that something is in the huge tomes of HoME or in some lost letters was hastily scribbled with pencil... like a huge puzzle where even the creator is sometimes lost in)

@startear: Good to read!