Incest in Elfquest?

The Gliders apparently descend from two High Ones,a male and a female,the Sunfolk come from Savah and her mother,all Wolfriders are direct descendants from Timmorn Yellow-Eyes with obvious mixing,Hell the Hunt was said to breed within themselves and back to the wolves and the GoBacks didn't seem to care about relations,if they even know their parents or half siblings.Then you have the trolls. Picknose's whole clan is heavily inbred and descend directly from him and OddBit. As for the lack of defects,well they're immortal with physically perfect bodies and no viruses to pass down in both elf and troll. And even if I dislike the pairings,Scouter/Tyleet and Ember/Teir are second cousins at best and fully legal just about anywhere. Not like say,if Cutter Recognized Dewshine or TwoSpear and Huntress Skyfire decided to resolve their differences by lifemating. Or a ShenShen/Sunstream coupling.

I'm gonna be giggling for a while at the concept of Two-spear and Skyfire resolving their differences by tumbling in the furs...and ohh the head crackery if they bred an heir out of recognition! How would this shape the line of chiefs indeed...hehehehe.

Am i the only one who finds the image of Shenshen with Sunstream actually...kinda sweet? O.o

Yup, Shenshen and Suntop would be funny, I wonder if tender Leetah would scream about that.

If Elves commit incest, maybe Recognition has the effect of cancelling out the bad genes.  Or maybe Elves who commit incest don't breed, even though conception is possible without Recognition.

The only time I recall any Elf showing outright disgust was when Clearbrook reacted to Winnowill's use of Rayek.  Keep in mind I have missed most of the recent issues, and I skip over spoilers.

When Rayek was introduced, he was insanely jealous of Cutter.  But he was not particularly disgusted by Leetah having relations with a Wolfrider.

In turn, Leetah was concerned that her cubs would be wolf-blood mortals.  But she didn't have a problem with Wolfriders as sexual partners.

One thing I have wondered about, on a related topic, was what would have happened if Timmain had been a male wolf, and if she had fathered her offspring through a series of female mates?

I think it could be more that they don't breed often or ever through incest. We have seen pretty much only Go-backs bred without recognition...we never really see any kids outside of recognition in the other tribes do we? It used to happen with the Wolfriders but that seems to have stopped entirely for some reason.

Timmain as a male wolf would have been cool! Male!Timmain would have had a LOT more hybrid offspring. Perhaps we'd have had more Timmorns. Perhaps they would of ended up in the other tribes somehow and all the tribes would have a drop of wolfblood...

..uh oh i think i'm turning into Wingthing...lol!

go on Wingthing-Vaeri, lol.
I would imagine that pure blooded Wolf-moms would bear only wolves with elf-blood. The could turn out to be perfect mounts for the Wolfriders. There was a wolf in the first comic, which was able to send! That could be an ability of those half wolves.

Trollbabe wrote:

If Elves commit incest, maybe Recognition has the effect of cancelling out the bad genes. Or maybe Elves who commit incest don't breed, even though conception is possible without Recognition.

I basically have this theory that Go-Backs have this sort of "reverse inactive Recognition". Basically; if two elves having a kid together would be a really bad idea… they just wouldn't have a kid together.

I imagined Timmain as a male wolf, rather than a female, because of the idea of accidental incest.

A female has a good idea which offspring are hers. A male, indiscriminately mating with multiple females, may lose track of which ones are his daughters and other female relations.

Yeee wrote:

Yup, Shenshen and Suntop would be funny, I wonder if tender Leetah would scream about that.

Oh dear... O_o Even i think its a cute thought, i wonder if that proves what Wendy said right....

All i can picture is her walking in on this, exclaiming "Great Sun!" as Shenshen holds him very close to her heart...

This is a sensitive topic and I wasn't sure where else to post it.

How much do Elves have in common with humans in terms of reproductive systems?

We know about Recognition, and that pregnancies take two years. Cheipar and Korafay seem to have been born at different stages of development IMHO - maybe Cheipar was a preemie/

Elfquest established that neither female full Elves nor female Wolfriders menstruate. Female Elves go through menopause if they live long enough. Of course, they never have cramps. Their breasts remain perky throughout their years and pregnancies, and they maintain complete control over their bladders.

I wonder if Elves are immune to sexually translated diseases, and whether female Elves have hymens.

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Cheipar and Korafay seem to have been born at different stages of development IMHO - maybe Cheipar was a preemie

It is stated that Wavedancer pregnancies take a year longer than usual. Explains the "precocial" state of Korafay versus the Wolfriders' more "altricial" state at birth.
And given the hostile environment conditions when Cheipar was born he might have suffered from malnutrition as well.

"It is stated that Wavedancer pregnancies take a year longer than usual."

WHAT? 3 years pregnancy? Really? Oh my, the poor elves, I had enough with my last pregnancy which was less than 1 year. I thought 2 years are hard to take, but 3 are a punishment. Poor Yeee-elf!
Where was that statement made?

I guess it was Final Quest Prologue - short before Brill gave birth.
Would have to look it up. It sparked a discussion on the forums whether it's 3 years or 2 1/2 years - but definitely longer than usual.

Well, if you consider how much the elves can adapt to their environment (see Fungus Elves, Fire Elves, Wavedancers), a different period of pregnancy should be a minor matter for this species. Still, that's a fascinating new aspect for me.

Then I will have to adjust this point for the Sea Raiders, the little ones have to be able to swim and change the way they breathe right after they are born.

@Trollbabe: "and they maintain complete control over their bladders."
At this point I could imagine that elves could also suffer damage from pregnancy and childbirth (pregnancy poisoning, bladder weakness, limp belly, etc.) as much as all other common diseases , yes, why not sexually transmitted diseases, should there be something like that in this species. They will mostly stay healthy with healers around...

At least the pregnant Wavedancers don't have to deal as much with the effects of gravity.

Yes, you say it. I loved it to get rid of that monstrous weight when I was last pregnant, when I was swimming.

Trollbabe wrote:

How much do Elves have in common with humans in terms of reproductive systems?

Elfquest established that neither female full Elves nor female Wolfriders menstruate.  

And that adds another question and solution...

A) How much do the Wolfrider's reproductive system (extended to include all aspects) copy that of the Wolves?

B) If they dont menstruate, it would 'solve' part of A), in that there might be less of the aspect of "going into heat" and having the whole pack of male elves going braindead while they do.

Having dogs, I just could see there being an issue if they were too wolf like...

They have Recognition for this! (Scouter was messed up enough ^^)

Embala wrote:

They have Recognition for this! (Scouter was messed up enough ^^)

I get that, bit in a way thats the elfin side of things, not the canid... Canines are just as driven by pheromones pushing them as the Elves are with recognition, the difference being recognition is selective. Im thinking that, earlier in the Wolfrider's history, there might have been some "Go-Back-esque" wild revelery if the wolf was a little strong, was all.. Not that it would have been as productive as the Go-Back's variant, but it makes a hunorous mental image of someone hollering "Dog Pile!" During a full moons....

You know me, Im not serious about any of it, I find humor in all things, and Im kind of sharing that, but at the same time Im sort of wondering what wolf traits Timmain selected to carry over to the Elves or if she left it to chance (which, to me, the whole point in selecting the wolves to integrate into the world to begin with was that they were able to thrive in struggles against the unexpected, while the high-ones were ill equipped due to only being able to survive when they could control everything, so it would fit more that Timmain only meddled in the joining to facilitate success in Timmorn surviving through birth until he could fend for himself, and nothing more. A roll of the dice, if you will, to let the chaotic wolf lead them to survival when their mechanations completely failed them. It would mean less if Timmain picked "hmm, hunting yes, fiercely protecting the pack, yes, respond to pheromones, no..." So I wonder, what other things are led by the wolves?)

In regards to Elves forming a dogpile, has anyone else wondered how Yif got his name?

BTW I went to this thread because I couldn't find a general thread about Elf sexuality, puberty and reproduction.

Sexual interaction between Elves is not a purely biological response, as in animals. Yet it is somehow different from human sexuality, according to the "Little Patch" story from Hidden Years.

As a powerful flesh-shaper, Winnowill was able to conceive a child with a Troll, and I am too far behind in reading to see if Two-Edge is able to father children with either species. I suspect Two-Edge is partly meant as a warning to readers that wolf/dog hybrids do not make good pets.

Elves are omnisexual, but putting aside Oddbit's fickle nature, Trolls appear to mate for life.

Trollbabe wrote:

As a powerful flesh-shaper, Winnowill was able to conceive a child with a Troll, and I am too far behind in reading to see if Two-Edge is able to father children with either species.  I suspect Two-Edge is partly meant as a warning to readers that wolf/dog hybrids do not make good pets.

I always pegged Two-Edge to be like a mule. A cross-bred animal that's not capable of mating. ("hinnies and mules can't have babies of their own. They are sterile because they can't make sperm or eggs. They have trouble making sperm or eggs because their chromosomes don't match up well. And, to a lesser extent, because of their chromosome number.")

So Winnowill was the horse (elegant), Two-Edge's father was the donkey, Two-Edge is the mule.

And as a side note - I never considered, and still don't think, that Two-Edge is a warning about wolf/dog hybrids. I just think they needed a device to create a troll/elf war and Two-Edge would be the perfect thing.

And not to say you're wrong; because I know the Pinis (back in OQ) used to post about wolves every few issues. So maybe that was their intent, I just don't see it.

TrollHammer wrote:

You know me, Im not serious about any of it, I find humor in all things, and Im kind of sharing that, ...

Ditto!

@Trollbabe So far Two-Edge has not sired a confirmed child.

My personal thought : Two-Edge is half elf. He can send. Thus he can recognize!

Seriously - he's the cross-child of two intelligent species from Homeworld. Trolls and Elves are comparably close related. Timmorn was a cross-child of Elf and ... an animal from an alien world! ... and he was able to recognize, sire children (with both species!) and became the ancestor of a wolfblooded tribe.
Actually I wonder why it's doubted by most people that he can breed.

I never considered Two Edge's ability, but Id have thought there would be little issue if the short story when he captured Winnie during the wolfrider's sleep is canon, as either Winnie was messing with him and flesh shaped him, or he has some latent flesh shaping/healing power. Besides, with all the OP healers around there would likely be some solution for a work around if not, unless Winnie really screwed with his genetics to the point he doesnt have a true genetic identity (think marble cake mix of elf and troll, instead of splicing, I mean winnie did some messed up things with creature thst should never have been able to breed much less coexist in one body, reptiles and mammals with warm and cold blood... Thats a bit farther than elf and troll, Id think.)

(For those who like my endlessly rambling posts of useless trivia) A non-magical way it might be possible we could make even a eunuch able to have offspring: you may have heard of 'stem cell research' nd have your opinion of such things, but a youtuber "Thought Emporium" stepped through the process by which he was able to take cells from his own body (cant remember of they were skin or cheek or what), and reverted them back into stem cells, converted them into brain/nerve cells and cloned them, placing them on an electrode grid, and went through the process to get them to respond and produce signals. He was unsuccessful in getting them to produce any signals, but the rest of the process appeared to work. It was nothing he came up with, he was repeating a successful experiement done by researchers.

My thought is if a guy can produce nerve cells in his (well prepared and built up laboratory) basement, and researchers were making pig muscle two decades ago, it seems any sort of cell could be created, even one required to make reproduction happen.

(Im leaving specific cells out because it would seem if you could select any sort of cell to be generated from a stem cell, it follows that a X or Y egg could be generated from a male donor, the latter being the most controversial, potentially).  This is still purely speculative on my part, but if a logical scientific chain of reasoning can be made for making a "mule" able to have offspring (not concieve, Im saying test tube embryos implanted in a surrogate), then it should be childs play for a fictional magical healer thats a thousand years old or more to fix being "fixed", as it were. So Id think.

But at least, no matter how you cut it, Teo Edge is the unlikeliest character to be a product of incest....

Embala wrote:

TrollHammer wrote:

You know me, Im not serious about any of it, I find humor in all things, and Im kind of sharing that, ...

Ditto!
@Trollbabe So far Two-Edge has not sired a confirmed child.
My personal thought : Two-Edge is half elf. He can send. Thus he can recognize!
Seriously - he's the cross-child of two intelligent species from Homeworld. Trolls and Elves are comparably close related. Timmorn was a cross-child of Elf and ... an animal from an alien world! ... and he was able to recognize, sire children (with both species!) and became the ancestor of a wolfblooded tribe.
Actually I wonder why it's doubted by most people that he can breed.

Can all elves Send though?
I honestly can't recall, for example, if the Go-Backs were ever shown to Send? Which you'd think - given their situation, all they'd do is Send to maintain stealth during the fight with the Frozen Trolls.

As for Timmorn Recognizing and siring - I think that had a lot to do with the fact that his mother was a direct connect to a High One. I have always found it weird that the Wolfriders "evolved" back to their "elf" form and didn't maintain a wolf like appearance like Timmorn. Because Timmorn had to have mated with a wolf, right? (Again, I can't remember) - Because at the time, he was the only elf around. Which - it seems - would have introduced MORE wolf genetics than elf genetics if that's the case. Or he otherwise inbred with one of Timmain's cubs that would have been related to him (which would make it more half wolf/half elf gene - which still wouldn't explain why Wolfriders evolved back to "elf" state).

But a lot of this is based on my own, very old faulty memory - and not really re-reading anything beyond OQ, Siege and Kings - more than once.

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Can all elves Send though?

I think all Elves have the latent ability to send. The Sunfolk learned it ... and after they moved into the Palace it became self-evident for them.
Even (part of) the Go-Backs learned it. Never made it a habit, though. I remember a quote that "sending makes headache".

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Because Timmorn had to have mated with a wolf, right? (Again, I can't remember) - Because at the time, he was the only elf around.

Not sure if I understand this right, Tymber. Timmorn was brought to the Firstcomers' den by wolf-shaped Timmain clearly before his preteens. He grew to adolescence among pureblooded Firstcomers and Firstborn.

It was quoted somewhere in the comics that he sired many cubs with Elves and wolves alike. That's how "the Hunt" got their wolfblood. (It's stated by the Pinis the Timmain never had other children or wolf pups besides Timmorn - before she got Jink of course. ^^ As far as comics implied otherwise it was declared non-canon by the creators.)

Timmorn and Valloa aka Murrel (a pureblooded huntress) were the first to recognize. They had at least half a dozen kids. And he had children (and Recognitions) with other elves, too.

According to the prose novels his more elvin offsprings developed into the Wolfriders we know. The wolf-like ones and those with strong wolfish traits (the so-called Hunt) finally regressed into elfblooded wolfes. It was hinted that Blackfell is an offstring of this Hunt.

This is based on my memory ... I cannot point to the sources easily. Details might be wrong or open for interpretation and discussion.