Incest in Elfquest?

Trollbabe wrote:

In regards to Elves forming a dogpile, has anyone else wondered how Yif got his name?  

BTW I went to this thread because I couldn't find a general thread about Elf sexuality, puberty and reproduction.

Sexual interaction between Elves is not a purely biological response, as in animals.  Yet it is somehow different from human sexuality, according to the "Little Patch" story from Hidden Years.

As a powerful flesh-shaper, Winnowill was able to conceive a child with a Troll, and I am too far behind in reading to see if Two-Edge is able to father children with either species.  I suspect Two-Edge is partly meant as a warning to readers that wolf/dog hybrids do not make good pets.

Elves are omnisexual, but putting aside Oddbit's fickle nature, Trolls appear to mate for life.

Except Guttlekraw and Greymung both seemed to have harems of troll women. I really don't buy Two-Edge being sterile, given Timmorn's obvious fertility and he was half-blooded as well. Just incredibly mentally damaged due to Winnowil's torture/abuse.

Embala wrote:

Timmorn and Valloa aka Murrel (a pureblooded huntress) were the first to recognize. They had at least half a dozen kids. And he had children (and Recognitions) with other elves, too.

Ah, that explains it. I forgot Timmorn was brought back to First Comers and such... that would explain the "evolution" back to their "elf" state.

Although - whatever happened to the First Comers? Wouldn't they have been High Ones? Because of no tainted blood? Wouldn't they still technically be alive, being immortal? Unless they were eventually killed (by humans or something)?

I clearly need to go back and re-read ElfQuest.

Well, Two-Edge can send - so I am assuming he can also Recognize - and if he can Recognize - I guess he can mate.

ElfQuest.com wrote:

His history as an ingenious master smith, inventor, and teacher to the trolls, led Picknose to spare his life. Some time later, Two-Edge was discovered by the Go-Backs and taken in by Rayek and Ekuar. Ekuar had a calming influence on him during his brief stay in the Palace, and he agreed to take Rayek to Blue Mountain. Before reaching their destination, Two-Edge ran from Rayek, but still found his way back to Blue Mountain. During this time, Leetah and Two-Edge came face-to-face and she did heal some of the damage his mother had wrought. Unable to complete the healing, Leetah did awaken his elfin sending power. This was discovered by Clearbrook, after she ran him through.

Now it becomes a bit technical.
In the prose novels the High Ones were quite literally the "tall ones" among mixed group of pureblooded Elves (Firstcomers and the "Firstborn", their direct offsprings), wolfblooded Elves and the Hunt, who were dominated by their wolf blood - be it physicall, mentally of both.

As far as I'm concerned ... I tend to use Firstcomers and High Ones as synonymes - both referring to the elf-shaped Coneheads.

One Elf wanted to heal him and another wanted to gut him. Ain't that just like wimmen.

Embala wrote:

As far as I'm concerned ... I tend to use Firstcomers and High Ones as synonymes - both referring to the elf-shaped Coneheads.

Is it written somewhere - what became of these Firstcomers that Timmain took Timmorn to?

Prism wrote:

Trollbabe wrote:

In regards to Elves forming a dogpile, has anyone else wondered how Yif got his name?  
BTW I went to this thread because I couldn't find a general thread about Elf sexuality, puberty and reproduction.
Sexual interaction between Elves is not a purely biological response, as in animals.  Yet it is somehow different from human sexuality, according to the "Little Patch" story from Hidden Years.
As a powerful flesh-shaper, Winnowill was able to conceive a child with a Troll, and I am too far behind in reading to see if Two-Edge is able to father children with either species.  I suspect Two-Edge is partly meant as a warning to readers that wolf/dog hybrids do not make good pets.
Elves are omnisexual, but putting aside Oddbit's fickle nature, Trolls appear to mate for life.

Except Guttlekraw and Greymung both seemed to have harems of troll women.

Well that could be a few factors - namely both had harems while on the throne.
Indicating that - it could be that Kings in troll culture by this time, simply had harems.
Or it could be female trolls, looking to be the next Queen, and willing to share until they prove "they're the one."

Tymber wrote:

Prism wrote:

Trollbabe wrote:

In regards to Elves forming a dogpile, has anyone else wondered how Yif got his name?  
BTW I went to this thread because I couldn't find a general thread about Elf sexuality, puberty and reproduction.
Sexual interaction between Elves is not a purely biological response, as in animals.  Yet it is somehow different from human sexuality, according to the "Little Patch" story from Hidden Years.
As a powerful flesh-shaper, Winnowill was able to conceive a child with a Troll, and I am too far behind in reading to see if Two-Edge is able to father children with either species.  I suspect Two-Edge is partly meant as a warning to readers that wolf/dog hybrids do not make good pets.
Elves are omnisexual, but putting aside Oddbit's fickle nature, Trolls appear to mate for life.

Except Guttlekraw and Greymung both seemed to have harems of troll women.

Well that could be a few factors - namely both had harems while on the throne.
Indicating that - it could be that Kings in troll culture by this time, simply had harems.
Or it could be female trolls, looking to be the next Queen, and willing to share until they prove "they're the one."

Not arguing one way or the other, I just was going to mention that Picknose is a little bit of a misfit at times. In a way, I kind of would describe him at times to be some kind of a 'traditionalist' in a changing world, a general cultural spiral down into degeneracy, and that Picknose was a bit of a different cut from the rest. The kings are classic examples of 'absolute power corrupts absolutely', and being all-powerful, there would be a culture of 'please the king' to keep one's head. Many of the trolls are depicted as being slow, dim-witted, single-minded, and almost treated as expendible, but Picknose has constantly been driven, bright, quick to act, quick to take advantage of a situation, and quick to react to changing circumstances. Oddbit is more of a 'well, I'd like to be romanced and cared for, but I'll take what I can get' kind of attitude. Generally, it'd be non-royalty against the king in any relationship sought out, not because of it being 'natural' for them, other than the degeneracy pushing things to preferable conditions and security, but rather 'the new norm' settled into. Really, though, we only have Picknose to go by for clues to this, and it could be that he just simply was a step above his peers and was knowingly leadership material, and could see a better future for trolls.... I dunno... I really shouldn't type tired... sorry.

When first introduced, Picknose was a potentially great leader whose character flaw was a gambling addiction. He did exhibit devotion to one female for centuries, as well as a traditionally masculine instinct of protecting the women.

We saw panel after panel of Troll kingdoms devoid of "mumps", with few domestic scenes. Winnowill, Two-Edge, and kings with harems got more exposure than nuclear families. So it's hard for me to generalize about Troll biology and sexuality.

Given the size of the kingdom Picknose produced during the Hidden Years, incest in Elfquest may not have been limited to Elves, unless his kingdom attracted wandering Trolls.

Trollbabe wrote:

We saw panel after panel of Troll kingdoms devoid of "mumps", with few domestic scenes.  Winnowill, Two-Edge, and kings with harems got more exposure than nuclear families.  So it's hard for me to generalize about Troll biology and sexuality.

Given the size of the kingdom Picknose produced during the Hidden Years, incest in Elfquest may not have been limited to Elves, unless his kingdom attracted wandering Trolls.

We also dont know much about the human tribes. Though the concept of making family with family is abhorrent in much of the western world, especially after some notable "royal" blunders in history and jokes about isolated sub-rural settlements, in some other historical parts of the world the concept of genealogy, decendancy, lineage, and so on are not addressed in some cultures, a few go to great lengths to irradicate any concept of bio-family and instill more of the sense of "the community/tribe" is your family, everyone here is your brother/sister/uncle/aunt/father/mother/elder/child. In theory the elders would be keeping track of who's baby got switched with who's, which orphan got placed in which home, etc, and ensured the matchmakers didnt join two biologically direct relatives, but it's conceivable that more than one mistake would be made here and there through the ages. Especially considering there might have been more than one instance of caretakers willingly or unwittingly trading duties without informing the elders.

But there isnt really a huge amount of information on the humans of WoTM, genealogy wise. Early tribes were depicted as small, and it would be hard to imagine the Gotara tribe being large enough to have a deep gene pool and the forest provide enough for their madcap pace of generational turn over compared to the wolfriders, AND support the needs of the Wolfriders.

I seem to remember this question come up years ago and for kicks I tried to come up with a spreadsheet to calculate how many high ones would have been needed to keep the bio diversity by the time of Cutter. I couldn't figure it out, but either someone posted or I saw an article on biodiversity somewhere and if I remember right theres something like 3000+ base members of a speices necessary for bio-diversity to be maintained, assuming usual "anyone but direct family" is maintained. (It may also be this came up in a more local discussion, since we have a bird population on the way to extinction and it has fallen to half the numbers required, so they have attempted transplanting genetically similar but non-related flocks to the area. Apparently they didnt like the inbredness of the locals and left, literally flew the coop, as it were. They were all radio tagged and whatnot, and the non-migrating birds migrated elsewhere rather than stay here with the other cookoo birds.)

I know the "local tribe" of humans left once or twice, and presumably ran into other tribes in their wanderings, or may not have been the same tribe when they came back, but there was nothing like even 1500 anything depicted between Mantricker's time when they came back and Cutter's time roughly 800-1000 years later. And with the deaths from war and madcoil, both tribes would have seen prospects reduce within their communities. The only thing saving the elves and trolls from all eventually becoming clones of each other is the potential for very long generations to stave this off.

Ill see if I can find the old research I did way back... It was convoluted presuming a lot of generational hopping and no deaths, and it still disnt result in 10 generations of chiefs that kept to a strictly "non-related" status for the parents... Though the definition of what is "incest" is a bit tighter than "entirely nonrelated" as I think I tried working it out for.


This has been another needlessly long post by your's truely. Sorry, had some time to burn and no computer to write a story.

I enjoy your posts. Trollhubby has been back in the hospital for almost a week, and they are on lockdown. So no visits, and he is too sick for long phone calls. Possibly stomach or kidneys, waiting on test results. It's maddening.

We don't really know much as to how closely related the Wolfriders are, except they're all descended from Timmorn and elf women. Then I noticed the close resemblance of Joyleaf, Eyes High, Rillfisher and Goodtree and Goodtree had more than one child in the novels, so Goodtree could be the grandmother of Joyleaf, Treestump and maybe Rillfisher. And Rillfisher and Eyes High definitely look like sisters. And back on the old forum, some speculated that Clearbrook's dead daughter could've been the mother of Shale, Pike and Rainsong. The novels said that Recognition never struck parent/child or full siblings, but nothing about half-siblings, uncle/niece or aunt/nephew. And trolls and elves aren't human, they probably lack the incest taboos we have and even among us humans, there's been instances of condones incest. Ancient Egyptians and Incans had sibling marriage and think of Adam and Eve! Their kids had to marry each other because there were no other humans around.

The thing about fantasy is that "magic" can be used to explain things, as long as it doesn't push the readers' patience too far.

Tymber wrote:

Embala wrote:

As far as I'm concerned ... I tend to use Firstcomers and High Ones as synonymes - both referring to the elf-shaped Coneheads.

Is it written somewhere - what became of these Firstcomers that Timmain took Timmorn to?

They respectively their descendants became the elves we know, Tymber - mainly Wolfriders and Go-Backs. The story is told in OQ #17 The Secret of The Wolfriders - starting here:
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ13&p=25 and the following 3 pages.

Embala wrote:

Tymber wrote:

Embala wrote:

As far as I'm concerned ... I tend to use Firstcomers and High Ones as synonymes - both referring to the elf-shaped Coneheads.

Is it written somewhere - what became of these Firstcomers that Timmain took Timmorn to?

They respectively their descendants became the elves we know, Tymber - mainly Wolfriders and Go-Backs. The story is told in OQ #17 The Secret of The Wolfriders - starting here:
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ13&p=25 and the following 3 pages.

Yes, that part I remember.
But that doesn't detail what became of them. Like, we see them dealing with Timmain and after she has her first set of cubs.
But where did they go after that? We see the generations of the Wolfriders continue... but we never see what became of the other "First Comers" - did they interact with the Wolfriders? Doesn't seem likely - or else the "awe" of the High Ones wouldn't be as big of a deal as it's played out to be.

We'd need @Shadowpath or @Startear in this discussion. They are much better with those "ancient days" because lots of Wolfrider "history" was told in the prose fiction I've merely skimmed.
(look up prose fiction in the wikipedia article)

But even the four comic pages should anwser your question, Tymber -or I don't get the question right. I'll sum up in short how I understand the comic pages and the bits I know from the prose stories.

Timmain brought her son Timmorn to the Firstcomers and their (so far pureblooded) offsprings, the so called Firstborn. Of course the Firstcomers and the Wolfriders interact - because the "Wolfriders" are the children of Timmorn and the Firstcomers and their Firstborn. Timmorn became their leader and the ancestor af all wolfblooded elves. Somewhere (in the prose novels?) it is said that he sired many children with pureblooded elves (inside and outside recognition) and with wolves alike.
Later they bred among themselves and with the remaining Purebloods.
- wolfblooded elf with wolfblooded elf
- pureblooded elf with pureblood elf
- wolfblooded elf with pureblooded elf
And recognition seemed to prefer wolfblood/pureblood pairings in those early days.

Timmorn's tribe was a very heterogeneous group - with members who were very wolflike in look and/or mind set, more or less balanced wolfblooded elves and with the remaining purebloods.

The tribe splitted at least twice
- first during Timmorn's or Rahnee's chieftime when the wild, wolfish kin, called "The Hunt", wandered off with chief Three-Toe
- the more balanced  "Wolfriders" and the Purebloods stayed with Rahnee and yes, they lived together and interacted as a tribe (admittedly it was a problematic alliance)
- this finally led to the second split when Two-Spear left with his followers (again most of them were of the "wilder" kind)
- Skyfire took over leadership for the remaining group ... and among her Wolfriders were still pureblooded elves like Rellah and Talen (most likely not Firstcomers but their offsprings)

The Firstcomers and their pureblooded offsprings simply died out.
- They likely bred more with wolfblooded elves than among themselves.
- And the hardships of Abode and accidents demanded their toll. The purebloods were more prone to physical and mental exhaustion so even the immortal "aged" and dwindled.
- Eldolil, the last of the pureblooded elves among the Wolfriders, died shortly before Tanner became chief.

I figure that the "High Ones" became the legendary figures around this time and the "awe" build up.

Quote :

Like, we see them dealing with Timmain and after she has her first set of cubs.

btw: There never was a second or third or any other "set of cubs" for Timmain. Not even a first set because Timmorn was the only cub.
Wendy Pini insisted that Timmorn was Timmain's only offspring (before Jink of course).
This retcons the allegorical "How shall I keep from singing" story where Timmain had at least one pureblooded daughter.


P.S. Some of the prose stories are declared (completely or partly) non-canon therefore my view on Wolfrider history might be  refuted by now or at least open to discussion.

Embala wrote:

Timmain brought her son Timmorn to the Firstcomers and their (so far pureblooded) offsprings, the so called Firstborn. Of course the Firstcomers and the Wolfriders interact - because the "Wolfriders" are the children of Timmorn and the Firstcomers and their Firstborn. Timmorn became their leader and the ancestor af all wolfblooded elves. Somewhere (in the prose novels?) it is said that he sired many children with pureblooded elves (inside and outside recognition) and with wolves alike.
Later they bred among themselves and with the remaining Purebloods.
- wolfblooded elf with wolfblooded elf
- pureblooded elf with pureblood elf
- wolfblooded elf with pureblooded elf
And recognition seemed to prefer wolfblood/pureblood pairings in those early days.
Timmorn's tribe was a very heterogeneous group - with members who were very wolflike in look and/or mind set, more or less balanced wolfblooded elves and with the remaining purebloods.

Wouldn't the pure bloods still be around (unless they befell an accident/were murdered) because they were Immortal?

I guess that's what I am getting at. These (mostly?) unnamed Pure Bloods should still be out there - unless they were, for example, murdered by humans or something, I'd assume.

I dont have an answer, just a fleeting thought... The way WaRP generated Sunstream's ability, was once implied to be "everyone sees everyone else" but then it manifested in the story as "only if you want to be seen, possibly have to jump through hoops while your at it" and we got one random singer and some mold people to show up.

Point is, Timmain forgot who she was for millennia, and she was a cone head. She got so absorbed into what she has invested in she had hardly the vaguest notion of who she had been. We saw two examples (and before that, Tier, which I dont remember if he is thoroughly accounted for, the historians here would know) of other splinters of other tribes out there, some of the high ones could have literally lost themselves, became Ents or shoot, one might have even become a mountain, so far beyond the rockshapers of Blue Mountain they became rock themselves. I like WoTM, because theres so many fringe areas to play in.


Anyway, like I said, no answers, just thoughts.

"some of the high ones could have literally lost themselves, became Ents or shoot, one might have even become a mountain"

Yup, or maybe big near giant hawk-eagles, which led to the harpy-elf tribe to be created

According to the Blood of Ten Chiefs novels, pureblood and wolfblood elves constantly Recognized throughout centuries if not milleniae. Rellah had at least a dozen Wolfrider children by as many fathers, Greywolf Recognized at least twice and they were not the exception.

Which is interesting - especially if Pureblood recognized Pureblood - meaning that the "pure" blood would have continued - but at some point - they all simply ceased to exist as far as we know (throughout Original Quest) - until Timmain reveals herself.

I know it's been hashed out a dozen times, but somehow I'm still cloudy about the history of the elves' spread... Check me...

-Palace crashes.

-High ones are run out. Haken messes with shaping a bone suit and plays with the humans. I can't remember, he died at the end of this?

-High ones wander a bit through the forest, but together. I can't remember the order of these events:
  -Timmain becomes a wolf to gather food for the others. Later begins to lose herself as a wolf and begets Timmorn.
  -A high one 'makes' a baby named Vol (or Voll). About this time another high one reveals 'Winnowil' (or there was discussion that this female baby would later be ol Winnie)
  -The high ones attempt to do something with magic. I remember it looked like trying to start a fire. Whatever it was, it failed and resulted in the dark pool of magic that later becomes Madcoil.

-Among what was becoming the Wolfriders, the purebloods and the children of Timmorn discuss what it really is to be an elf, (I'm really fuzzy on this one, I remember them all being in a cave having a discussion, I don't remember what it was about, but I feel like it was how the Wolfriders felt like they were carrying the purebloods or something, or aversion to eating meat... I really can't remember this all that well, I just remember some purebloods and the Wolfriders together in a cave having a meeting)

-Savah, her mother, and those who would become the sun villagers set out across the desert. I don't know where they came from or at what time. All I know is they aren't wolfriders and never were. I don't remember who Savah's mom was, but I got the impression it was Timmain (of course, because she's the only one that can be awesome)

Either the wandering Wolfriders, or Two-Spear, or his splinter tribe, I can't remember the exact instance, find a cave with residual magic, some shaped steps, and someone says it's a sign about something (honestly, I gotta re-read the whole dang series... I'm so bad)

-A ways after Timmorn's birth, Two-Spear splits the tribe and takes some of them to become the go-backs. Along the way Kahvi (or khavi, or kaluah, or kaffee, or however the heck its spelled.. lol) is stabbed and left in a magic pool, presumably left by earlier High One's travels.

Somewhere along the line, three pure-blooded stoneshapers, Mekda, Osek, and Ekuar (if I recall correctly) head off for the palace (but I don't know where from, presumably not from Sarrow's End (or were from VERY early on before they adapted), and presumably if they are from the group of pure-bloods that were with the wolfriders, they are from before Two-Spear's time. I dunno why I think this, but it makes sense to me for some reason. They are captured by the trolls. (I don't assume they are from Sarrow's End due to the remains being found, I figure the remains were due to the one escaping via Tunnel of Golden Light (perhaps making it) and following the cliff face until they were exhausted and died, never having made it to Sarrows End)

Lets see.... Somewhere along some line the gliders split off from the group... I'd assume either before or about the time Timmorn is born.  The implication here is that all the gliders are inbred decendants of Voll and Winnie, but Id assume there's have been other pure-bloods or high ones with them. Where they went (Egg? with amnesia from one too many Winnie Specials? It would make sense he'd know how to recreate the scrolls and palace in stone if he was)

I still don't know where Tier (Teir, tear, tere, tare, or whatever...) fits in...

I still don't remember where the fungus elves came from, or Hooty the Blow Elf... (sorry, bad with new names)


That covers.... Wolf-Surfers, Won't-Go-backs, Can-but-Wont-Gliders, The Fun-Guys, One Man Band, the Plain Elf, The Stoners, The Sun-Tanners, and The Original Elf-Help Hotline... but still a lot of huge gaps... and I don't remember the order.... (EDIT: found out I forgot Wavedancers, Sorry!)

My point is, see how the timeline branches off, and see where the leaves fall off...  There's a lot of pure-blooded elves here and there, and I don't remember now many (circle of nine, or of eleven, or 'doesn't matter, that wasn't all of them anyway because there was also a pilot that died and these guys were just in the control room or something') high ones left the palace in the first place... Still, you have at least Sarrows End, Gliders, and Fungus Elves, as well as Hooty's groupies... besides those that were with the Wolfriders at the beginning (but disappeared)... that's 4-5 major splits that would need at least two ancestors (and yeah, there could have been some sharing, but you also had some taken out before they could beget, such as the pilot.)

Well, this may have been pointless, but just trying to get my head straight after what has been discussed... I'll see if I can find an old timeline, seems like there was one before....

Reading according to the chonology listed via eq.com site...

It starts showing the circle of 9, and we only see nine for the first bit but then more show up...
Timmain
Aerth
Haken (will fill this in more later.)
Of thd circle of nine, one died out of the gate. Body is take with...
5 others died in the initial attack, left there for haken to shape later

After haken and Timmain leave theres in excess of a dozen figures in a cave (making it those dozen or so, the 6 that died, timmain and haken, so at least 20 originally down to 14+

"Haken messes with shaping a bone suit and plays with the humans. I can't remember, he died at the end of this?"

Yes, he surely survived and produced some offsprings , else Rayek would look different or there simply would be no Rayek. Yurek, Savahs mate, looked also very much like Haken, so I believe from him comes the "Haken" gene, maybe it is also in Savah because of her black hair (later drawn white , but I ignore that).
Gibra High One, looking like a blonde Leetah, is surely female ancestor of the Sun Villagers. I believe it was Gibra who bore Vol (might be Voll) and so there are the Glider-line and the Sun Villager -line weaved together and also the fungus elves, which were former tribemates of Savah (THE Rootless Ones). The Glider ancestors and the Rootless parted , I think it would fit best before founding blue mountain as a big nest to dwell in. Ok, Winnie could have made this nest uncomfortable long ago so that the Rootless were pissed and ran away.

Teir is the son of Khavi-Kaffee and ...(oh my who was the father?) I think it was Windkin?

Hooty the Blow Elf Dre-Ahn is a mystery , no one knows from whom and where he is descended of and from ..., the same for the 3 Rock shapers (Ekuar). But they ere dressed like Go-Backs when they got catched by the Trolls. So they might be related to Go-Backs but not neccessarily , dressing up the same is more the result of the harsh cold surrounding of the frozen mountains area.
And then the list is even longer:
Sun Top was sending images of other elves totally unknown (and therefore also the High One ancestors) to us.
among them loners and other elves which are part of flames! Volcano dwelling elves? What the heck! With inventing beings which are able to adapt to live in pure life-destructive surrounding like lava or near that , the Pinis can not argue, that this elf-species cannot adapt to anything! My point here is the Integration of other species genes within the elves genetics. If they can transform into flame beings (being flames themselves) they can transform into other beings (being these into the DNA-core), that shouldn`t be so difficult to be wolf or human or anything else.

Now, from where are those mysterious fire-elves coming? And the loners and Dreh-Ahn Hootie and the elf couple that came to the palace in FQ.
So there might be a lot of High Ones still jumping around on the world of 2 moons, at least their descendants do. Yay!

Im still rereading the series, Im passed Timmorn... Might keep trying to untangle my post above...

@Yeee: so be tween what you are saying and what I was reading, it sounds like the Wolfriders are far, far more geneticly diversified than any other group of elves? If you are saying its Haken/Gibra (i got tangled in the names when I read it, I guess I should have taken notes. It depicts a high-one and a blong haired daughter going back to see Haken at thr palace, which wasnt considered far away from wherever they were at the time, but covered in snow) anyway, sounds like "first go-bscks/haken started Blue Mountain and Sun Village, which is like 2 base progenitors? The wolfriders had at least Timmain, alpha wolf, and a few if not all the rest of the pure bloods...

As Embala said, it kinda goes back and forth as to if it is "canon" or not, but a lot of stuff is jammed into the BotC novels. A lot of the purebloods are lost due to the ferocity of the world, it seems. At least among the wolfrider tribes.

It's been forever since I've read them all, though, so specifics are fuzzy.

@TrollHammer : " It depicts a high-one and a blong haired daughter going back to see Haken at thr palace, which wasnt considered far away from wherever they were at the time, but covered in snow) anyway, sounds like "first go-bscks/haken started Blue Mountain and Sun Village, which is like 2 base progenitors?"

Yes