The Elfquest Show Episode 21

It's up!

https://soundcloud.com/theelfquestshow

And ... 'dick wings'. XD

Listening to it right now.
My brain has been broken!

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Sorry for being cynical, but this "She died on the way but her brave spirit is here.""Then she made it!" spoilt it for me. Why care for any elfin death after this?

And - how do they know? Have a not so secret source or is it just one of their provocative speculation to spur interest? Yeay, I know it is a logical conclusion in case TimWolf was in this pit for decades.

Quote :

Sorry for being cynical, but this "She died on the way but her brave spirit is here."Then she made it!" spoilt it for me. Why care for any elfin death after this?

Amen. This attitude's logical conclusion is mass suicide of all of the elves, as this is undoubtedly far easier than fighting humans across half the planet. Why be worried about the wavedancers being wiped out by the navy, or even resurrect Two-Edge's clearcutters with a little revamp to eliminate the human crew and let it wipe out all the forests in a sort of "scorched earth" policy: if the Elves are getting wiped by humans, but live on in the palace, they dont need forests, but the humans do, so get them back in the end.

(Sorry, havent heard the podcasts, just found it refreshing I wasnt the only one bothered by this)

The whole "shorter path" business glosses over the exact reason Timmain started the Wolfriders: living and striving is everything! The spirits of the palace are like the crew of Davy Jone's ship (as depicted on the disney films): still sort of there, but will little fleeting will of their own, a huge chunk of their selves eroding away in eternity. Some more "alive" than others, but some barely a wandering whisper among the other voices. There should be hundreds or thousands of Go-Backs swarming the Palace, but we barely see a passing ghost of Kahvi, much less any other go-back (and she wasnt technically forced to go to the Palace as a Wolfrider: she could have returned to whatever home she felt bound to according to the lore)

I dunno, still comes across to me that one could view the spirits of the dead as batteries to boost the Palace up to enough strength to escape that world.

Because living, with flesh and blood; being able to touch and hold you loved ones, is still better than being a spirit.
It's just that when/if death comes (whether it be from old age, sickness, an accident, or violence) then it's not something that should be raged against, not something - for the elves - which means the end of all communication with loved ones.
The elves grieve for those they've lost, but they do so in the knowledge that - in time - they'll be able to communicate with them in the Palace, although without the ability to touch them.

Nah- you guys are looking at it wrong. Here's the thing. Timmain started the Wolfriders as a desperate, last ditch attempt to save her dying people, because she had no other choice. She didn't do it because it was the best idea in the world for elves. And for many, many, many generations-- the conflict between wolf and elf natures caused a LOT of problems-- both for the Wolfriders themselves and for the full blooded elves they lives with. Their natures were unstable-- and remained unstable until almost Cutter's time.

Now-- the elves have a chance to go back to what they were. Not what they were for some generations-- but the original state their people had occupied for eons. And Timmain seems to feel that's the best option for everybody-- but, she can't undo her past choice. It was that choice that created her "children" and that choice that allowed them to survive until they could make this new one. She can't make the choice, now, for them-- even though she did back then.

The idea of elves preferring death is not new. In th story of the High Ones that Timmain told to Suntop, back at the end of Book 4, she explains that the High Ones once almost, actively and collectively, chose death-- because it was so pleasant. Life isn't as pleasant-- but life has challenges that help a spirit learn and grow. For them, life and death was clearly a toss up as to which was a better option. They are equally good in different ways. When she says "we chose life"-- she doesn't say "because it was better." It was just different.

And then, she concludes that her "gift" to her children was a guaranteed death. It was also a will to survive and the physical strength to do it. So her people, as a whole, would continue to live and reproduce-- but the individual lives would always die off. That was her compromise-- and she considered it a decent one. Individual life has never been important to her (even if individual people have). Collective survival and collective (or individual) spiritual growth has.

I totally agree, Lunakat.

It's just that palace talk that way it's written sometimes by the characters starts to sound like Jonestown and I'm waiting for more pitchers of collective Koolaid to come busting out of the crystal walls.

It's always been that way, though. What group of elves in the original quest ever spoke badly of the High Ones? They were like gods to everyone.

Lunakat wrote:

Nah- you guys are looking at it wrong. Here's the thing. Timmain started the Wolfriders as a desperate, last ditch attempt to save her dying people, because she had no other choice. She didn't do it because it was the best idea in the world for elves. And for many, many, many generations-- the conflict between wolf and elf natures caused a LOT of problems-- both for the Wolfriders themselves and for the full blooded elves they lives with. Their natures were unstable-- and remained unstable until almost Cutter's time.

Now-- the elves have a chance to go back to what they were. Not what they were for some generations-- but the original state their people had occupied for eons. And Timmain seems to feel that's the best option for everybody-- but, she can't undo her past choice. It was that choice that created her "children" and that choice that allowed them to survive until they could make this new one. She can't make the choice, now, for them-- even though she did back then.

The idea of elves preferring death is not new. In th story of the High Ones that Timmain told to Suntop, back at the end of Book 4, she explains that the High Ones once almost, actively and collectively, chose death-- because it was so pleasant. Life isn't as pleasant-- but life has challenges that help a spirit learn and grow. For them, life and death was clearly a toss up as to which was a better option. They are equally good in different ways. When she says "we chose life"-- she doesn't say "because it was better." It was just different.

And then, she concludes that her "gift" to her children was a guaranteed death. It was also a will to survive and the physical strength to do it. So her people, as a whole, would continue to live and reproduce-- but the individual lives would always die off. That was her compromise-- and she considered it a decent one. Individual life has never been important to her (even if individual people have). Collective survival and collective (or individual) spiritual growth has.

I guess thats one way to see it. I read these following pages as "intentional gift" for the wolfriders to call WoTM home:
http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ20&p=29 http://elfquest.com/read/index.php?s=OQ/OQ20&p=40

But as with everything dealing with Timmain, there seems to be two minds about it...


Its going to take a while for me to listen to the podcast, being that it is over 2 hours. Is there a particular section I should focus on or "not miss"?

Rereading the issue against the context of the end of the original quest, Im guessing either Dre-ahn or Strongbow will need to be the one who finds Cutter, and having typed that I realize they are both the least talkative, non-magical elves in the series. This fits, as I cant imagine what words would be good enough to help Cutter. I do realize that Strongow is not among the search party, but they are both on foot, and Cutter left first, so there isnt any reason Strongbow couldnt end up finding him by accident.

Well, yeah-- her intention was to try to create w viable connection between her people and the world they had crash-landed on, so that future generations could survive. But that intention only existed because of the desperate circumstances everyone found themselves in. And the consequences were obviously not clearly mapped out. She sacrificed herself (her elf self) and did a desperate thing... that involved a huge compromise (death)... in exchange for the hope that subsequent generations of her people would adapt to the world they lived in and be able to call it home.

But it's not like she looked at the Abode from far off and said "I have a great idea-- let's go there and do this!" It wasn't the ideal situation for anyone.

And she did succeed. But now there's a conflict-- because her "children" are so strongly connected to the world that they don't want to leave it. But they are also connected to the Palace their ancestors arrived in. Now that everyone can leave again-- half of them don't want to.

I think that's a clever idea about Cutter. It would be great if Strongbow helped him out. It would be a nice reversal of what happened before. And maybe it would help Strongbow come to terms with Moonshade.

Just to play devil's advocate, we only have Timmain's word for her motivations in having Timmorn, if there were motivations at all. It's not impossible that this "gift to my son" business is the PR spin she's putting on an entirely unintentional cross-breeding, especially reading the version given in book 3. There it sounds like she took on wolf form to feed and protect her people, but then lost herself in that form and sometime later Timmorn was conceived and born. Like, very possibly not on purpose. Because she was living as a wolf and, ahem, schtupping as a wolf.

Now I know that was essentially the version the WR's had handed down to them through oral history, and Timmain's is the eyewitness account. But I just mistrust every word that weirdo says now, or has ever said. I don't trust her one bit! I think it would be just like her to take credit for an accidental pregnancy as a gift and a sacrifice and an act of profound wisdom. (Yes it turned out fairly well, but most of the credit for that is due to Timmorn himself being the leader and the link his people needed.)

She was sending through Suntop. By the rules set up in the story, it seems likely that Suntop would have known if she were lying. Besides that, she stays in a cocoon and sends to Rayek (and anyone else around) for some years after that. She'd have to able to lie as no one else can to pull that off-- and if so, then my suspension of disbelief is permanently shot.

Very good point. I'm not totally letting go of this personal theory though - If anyone can lie in sending, it's Timmain. If any series is gonna reveal lying in sending is now possible, it's Final Quest. My suspension of disbelief bit the dust long ago!

This is a fun chain of thought, and though Im fairly resigned to sitting back and just enjoying the show, I still enjoy exploring the possibilities. That said:

After seeing what Winnie did within the rules of sending, having twisted the truth, seduced and misled others, and caused pain (which seems to go against the intent of "truth in sending", though there is often pain in truth), it seems as though there is an unfortunate interpretation of how things could be going. Being that Timmain's focus is on the Scroll of Colors, and attempting to follow a "thread" to get the elves off planet, but resigned to the idea that everything is in flux, it presents a sort of opportunity for anything to be 'sent in truth'...

Oh Trollhammer, absolutely le video clip juste for this discussion!

That's fantastic.

Timmain/Kenobi 2016!!!

Their campaign slogan is: "We passed the polygraph!"

Actually, that's very much how I headcanon this "in sending there is only truth" - sending is basically a polygraph, and most people if they try to lie set off huge alarm bells due to blood pressure spikes or whathaveyou. But if you are slick enough - or deluded enough that you believe your "certain point of view".... no alarm bells.

My secondary headcanon is its about on par with " no elf must die " - its a hard and fast rule... until it's broken.

"No elf must die" was never a hard and fast rule. It was just a philosophy that Cutter came up with for himself on the bridge of destiny, when he decided to save Rayek.

Yeah, I got that it was just a Cutter thing as well, and it was more of an ethical responsibility he took on himself. I was thinking that the others' deriviation of this (in current context) is "we have the means to keep everyone alive, therefore we should try to do so". In Bearclaw's time and before, I couldnt see a Wolfrider (or even a go-back, for that reason) to really waste much time on whether or not a challenger or threat should stay alive just 'because they are an Elf'. Two Spear doesnt even seem to lose sleep over 'killing' his own daughter (from my perspective this was his intent and more). Keep humans from killing a tribesmate, sure, but if someone loses their life in a challenge it's "the Way" just as it was with the wolves.

But yeah, even then it was rare, as though it was an unspoken rule that wouldnt be broken until it was.

I have to wonder, though: if a small detail changed (no drought, no fire, fire prevented, shaman preemptively killed, human tribe wiped out by Bearclaw or Madcoil) and Cutter hadnt been forced from the Holt, would he have been less likely to seek out other tribes, content as a mortal wolfrider chief for a couple thousand years, without a self imposed obligation to keep Elves alive because they are Elves? Further, would wolf-Timmain have perished as Tam died (or would Tam have rejoined Timmain?) So much hinges on that fire getting Cutter out to see the world, but this is an act caused by a non-elf creature... so from a temporal perspective, did "Tam" find itself drawn to the event of the fire (which might not have happened if Cutter were just another wolfrider chief) and choose that point to enter the cycle of things, or did Timmain (via Tam) meddle with things and cause a disruption resulting in the fire? Hmmm.... Just thinking out loud.

Finally skimmed through most of the podcast.... lots to think about, foremost was an elaboration on the Tam/Cutter vs New Moon/Scabbard discussion: a slightly different interpretation might be that, as always, New Moon represents Cutter (and the story of New Moon really follows Cutter's story too!), in that all parts of New Moon that are needing to be there to be a sword are there: a blade, a hilt, bindings, and so on, just like every other Elf. Cutter has everything an Elf has to be an Elf: a soul name, a body, pointed ears (to wit)... but with New Moon there was a hidden Key, and with Cutter you have a hidden part who's purpose is not yet obvious. Of course, this makes Timmain akin to Two Edge perhaps?

Also, at the end of the podcast, when they are talking about the "what happens when he dies" scenario... it made me wonder if Final Quest is the end of Cutter once again, and what story exist outside of the storyline with Cutter... reminded me of Future Quest... and how "Cutter" is onboard the Palace as it come in to Abode.

Its very possible that "Cutter" is really Timmain in Cutter form... or perhaps, if/when Cutter dies, Timmain loses herself to a degree and Cutter takes over?

Which then sparks the thought that Cutter's biggest advisaries were Rayak and Winnie, and they were two merged into one. Cutter could be seen as one that became two.

I just started listening to the podcast. I'm right in the middle of it. It's interesting to hear David and Ryan try to work this out. The one really interesting thing thats been said so far is Ryan's comment/question about what Wendy might be trying g to communicate through the story. I do think that he's right-- that Wendy is trying to communicate her spiritual world view-- and for that reason alone, I find myself interested in the story in a new and different way. I disagree that this is not being spoon-fed to us, though. Ever since Searcher and the Sword-- Elfquest has been spoon feeding us the morals of each story arc. This also seems very direct and almost literal. I think, in the end, we are going to be not-subtly confronted with Wendy's world view and spiritual philosophy-- like a hammer to a window. Cutter has reached a very pivotal point in the hero's journey-- and it's super obvious-- almost as if Elfquest were straight up simply illustrating that mythos. It did all used to be there-- in the Original Quest-- but it was very grounded in the characters and their world. Now it seems the world and characters are revolving around the ideas instead-- if that makes sense.

From the way Wendy and Richard talk about the Hero's Journey, it's like Joseph Campbell's exact blueprint is the only kind of story worth telling.

(Except they're also somehow completely original. Tolkien isn't influencing them, Star Wars isn't influencing them, hell, even Homer isn't influencing them, it just "follows the same mythic form"   )

sun girl wrote:

From the way Wendy and Richard talk about the Hero's Journey, it's like Joseph Campbell's exact blueprint is the only kind of story worth telling.

Yeah.. I think it's getting really overt lately. The thing about the Hero's Journey is that it is sort of the every-story-- it's a not supposed to be a blueprint for a story-- but a blueprint drawn from many stories for human life-- for how myths and stories describe the human experience.

But whatever. Let's kick back and watch Cutter descend into his abyss, confront his greatest fear, then claw his way out.

That's the thing, right, Joseph Campbell wasn't trying to write a rulebook! He was an academic, just doing comparative mythology, illustrating what similar themes existed in legend across human culture. But ever since George Lucas revealed his use of it for Star Wars, writers treat that book like it's Fantasy Plotting for Dummies. No wonder every new YA fantasy series sounds exactly the damn same.

I'm still finding the idea of reading Elfquest in a meta kind of way-- as a presentation of Wendy's world view and spiritual beliefs-- to be really interesting. It makes me want to follow the story without the kind of judgement or expectation I had previously been imposing on it. It ceases, in a way, to be about the story-- and becomes more about insight into the author. And aren't the mind, attitude and experiences of a real human being more interesting than fiction?